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Fender Bender
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Re: At risk of sounding like a whiner

Apr 15, 2013

SirCrush wrote:

 

Sorry, I am frustrated. I feel I am a part of this community and I needed to publicly rant. Commence poking fun.


Then you're in the right place! That's one of the things I like the most about forums. They can serve as several different things. Cat Happy

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: At risk of sounding like a whiner

Apr 15, 2013
Well, lag is sometimes quite annoying... But I wouldn't say I experience it sooo often.

And note that my internet is 1 MB at the moment. But as mentioned before, speed is not the main factor for lag.
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Fender Bender
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Re: At risk of sounding like a whiner

[ Edited ]
Apr 16, 2013

Crush, you need to make some room on your friends list, I need more west coast players to run with (I'm from California, stationed in Washington now).

 

I haven't wanted to say anything until I've done more testing, but my short preliminary tests yesterday in Ascension make me think that buffer bloat is a likely target for our lag woes.  My connection is around 35-45Mb down and 10 - 12 Mb up.  Ping tests, line quality tests - just about every test possible comes back with no issues.

 

I shouldn't see any issues, yet I do and it is lag and not just in Ascension.  I've tried manual port forwards, DMZ, I've gone through different routers, different modems, different households even.  

 

However, the constant was my internet connection being fast.  Very fast (by US standards anyway).  So I thought what could be the link here?  That led me to researching buffer bloat.

 

You can do your own research, and I recommend you do, but here's what you can do to try to troubleshoot it.  First off, enable QoS in your router if you haven't.  Cap your upload speed.  I've seen suggestions of around 50 percent of max upload, but I went quite a bit lower.  I think I capped mine at 2.5 Mb.  

 

If you'd like to see whether buffer bloat might be causing your issues and you're on Windows 7, go to your Start menu and type "cmd" in the search box.  In the DOS-like window, type "ping -t www.google.com"  or use an ip address or some other website if you like.  Let it keep running, observe your "time" category which is your ping.

 

Now, go to TestMy.net Broadband Internet Speed Test   and go to Upload Test.   Then you'll see an "auto test" or "select my test size".  I chose to select the size and picked the 33 megabyte file.    Now watch your cmd window and the "time" category again.  If you see it start jumping up and up and up - then it's probably buffer bloat.

 

Back in the "cmd" window.  Just hit ctrl c  to stop the pinging and see an overall average.

 

Before I limited my upload speed (in my router settings), when I did the above steps I would see my ping start to climb and climb.  Once I limited my upload, it still climbs, but only marginally and my latency stayed relatively even.

 

This isn't a guaranteed fix and if you read up on buffer bloat, you'll understand why, but it's something to try when you seem to be lagging despite having an otherwise great connection.  It also shows how suddenly having a fast connection is actually a handicap while slower connections seem to plug along just fine. 

 

If you guys find any success with this, do let me know and I'll try to write up a separate thread with more information and explained a bit better.

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Wastelander
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Re: At risk of sounding like a whiner

[ Edited ]
Apr 16, 2013

EXCELLENT stuff! I did not observe the ping in the command prompt until AFTER I set my QoS to 2.5 and now my router is being weird and not letting me log into it (it won't load the screen at 192.168.2.1 anymore for some reason) so I can't set it back to QoS - auto till I figure that out but after setting to 2.5 up, the "time" fluctuated from 13ms to 30ms, staying relatively steady at around 14-18 for most pings. Is this normal? No real spikes, that I notices, outside of a constant up and down fluctation between those numbers I already mentioned.

 

I'll try getting into my router to set it back to auto instead of 2.5 to see if there's a difference.

 

THANKS for the suggestion! Whether right or wrong, it's another thing I can try to limit my problems and your wording sounds exactly like the problems I've been having. Even the Wikipedia entry for bufferbloat makes perfect sense and fit right in to my theories about my internet being "too fast" per se. Update coming...friggin router.

 

EDIT - Using google, I had more "spikes" toward the 20-30ms range than when I pinged sherdog.com, a L.A. based website where the pings stayed at 13-15 pretty steadily. Still troubleshooting.

 

EDIT #2 - Okay after messing around and doing a few upload tests with QoS on at 2.5mb and off, I noticed little difference in anything. Few spikes on the graph after the tests for either setting and almost identical ping fluctations in the command prompt. Still getting some spikes up to 40ms at times but mostly stable. I'm gonna try running my game with QoS on at 2.5mb up for a couple days and see if it gets any better. Again, thanks for the suggestion. Even if you're/we're wrong, at least it's something else to try. I'll be adding you in a bit when wifey goes to bed Smiley Happy

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Fender Bender
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Re: At risk of sounding like a whiner

[ Edited ]
Apr 16, 2013

SirCrush wrote:

EXCELLENT stuff! I did not observe the ping in the command prompt until AFTER I set my QoS to 2.5 and now my router is being weird and not letting me log into it (it won't load the screen at 192.168.2.1 anymore for some reason) so I can't set it back to QoS - auto till I figure that out but after setting to 2.5 up, the "time" fluctuated from 13ms to 30ms, staying relatively steady at around 14-18 for most pings. Is this normal? No real spikes, that I notices, outside of a constant up and down fluctation between those numbers I already mentioned.

 

I'll try getting into my router to set it back to auto instead of 2.5 to see if there's a difference.

 

THANKS for the suggestion! Whether right or wrong, it's another thing I can try to limit my problems and your wording sounds exactly like the problems I've been having. Even the Wikipedia entry for bufferbloat makes perfect sense and fit right in to my theories about my internet being "too fast" per se. Update coming...friggin router.

 

EDIT - Using google, I had more "spikes" toward the 20-30ms range than when I pinged sherdog.com, a L.A. based website where the pings stayed at 13-15 pretty steadily. Still troubleshooting.


It's not necessarily the router's fault.  In my case, it's more to do with Comcast and "clogging the line" really, but I digress.

 

The cmd pingtest is only part of it.  You've also got to run the file upload I linked to.  First you let the ping test run in your cmd window.  Observe your average.  While that's running, load a webpage, load that file upload link and then while that's running, go back to your command window and watch the "time" field.  See if it's constantly increasing, spiking, or staying relatively low latency and even.

 

If your ping is staying even, then you're good to go and the buffer bloat (if you had any) is somewhat mitigated.  You should be able to tell online in Ascension pretty easily.  In my case, I was able to play CTF without the game-destroying lag I'd come to know in that mode.  There's still lag, of course, but it was manageable for the most part.

 

So yeah, run the ping test in cmd window.  Check your average ping.  Keep cmd test running.  Load browser, go to file upload.  Run that, go back to cmd window, watch ping for spikes.

 

Oh, as for problems logging into your router, sometimes the old power cycle is required on both the modem and the router.  Best to turn off your PS3 and any devices (although I usually leave my PC on and just disable the ethernet adapter).  It happened to me too, couldn't connect to my router.  Power cycled, let the modem boot. Waited.  Powered on the router, waited until it was fully online, then I was good to go again.

 

EDIT:

 

Also, if you were saying those pings were what you were getting both before and during the file upload, then that's my mistake.  I couldn't be sure.  If it was, then hopefully you're good.  And yeah, your pings are going to vary depending on where you ping to.   Somewhere on the east coast, you'll get a much higher ping than to LA, of course.

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She's going to have to fall on her sword. Which means that we have to stick one in the ground, trip her onto it and get someone to jump up and down on her back for ten minutes. --

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Treasure Hunter
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Re: At risk of sounding like a whiner

Apr 16, 2013
^ You Have It In You To Type A Lenghty Textbook !
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Lombax Warrior
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Re: At risk of sounding like a whiner

Apr 16, 2013
Man I know exactly how you feel. I've had this happen to me a lot more recently. I don't know why, maybe I was just ignorant before when I was a noob, and now that I've gotten better, I can't explain why other people are doing so much better than myself.

The main problem I'm having with the lag issues is trying to combo effectively and grapple when needed. Now I know the grapple system is flawed horribly at the moment and it's trying to be fixed, but I had a guy in the lobby with me grapple me consistently EVERY SINGLE TIME HE COULD. Even when I wasn't grapple-able he managed to just break through whatever stops being grappled, and throw me around like a rag doll. It sucked. Hard.
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Wastelander
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Re: At risk of sounding like a whiner

[ Edited ]
Apr 16, 2013

Vanthem - Did several tests and the ping seemed to be more consistent when I lowered my Upload speed to 2.5 as opposed to the 4-5 range it maxes at. Like I said, gonna give QoS a whirl, see if it is GENERALLY better but so far, it's about the same as it's always been. Random matches, lag is non-existant. With a party, not hosting, lag's there. Oh well.

 

SparklyKitten - Yeah that wasn't on my list but grappling is another thing thatt fails with lag. Many players grapple me EVERY TIME it is possible while my chain bounces right off of their white halo. Annoying as hell.

 

EDIT: Apparently I forget to enable QoS before I started playing lol That might explain why it felt exactly the same. I'll play some more tomorrow and see how it feels. Damnit.

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Wastelander
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Re: At risk of sounding like a whiner

Apr 16, 2013

Alright after considerable testing with QoS on and set to 2.5, it feels the same. Exactly the same.

 

One good thing came of this: I found out that as long as I am hosting, it seems lag is at nil. It's when I get into games with other people or an opposing party that lag starts to spike, in some cases ALOT. Seems my connection is fast enough to host most games with single players who aren't in a party. That is, if that's how THIS GAME'S matchmaking works. Most games try to find the fastest connection for p2p hosting. Generally, that's me. But when someone hosts a party it LOOKS LIKE it gives their party leader the hosting nod. I am going to try and host a bunch of games with friends today, see if maybe that negates my problem. Hopefully my fast connection as party host will keep me as match host. First I'm gonna turn up my QoS upload speed since I doubt I am getting bufferbloat.

 

My matches in Twisted Metal were always some of the LEAST laggy and that was before I upgraded my internet. Back then I was at 20mb/1mb and I handled that chaotic game with ease. Those guys at Eat.Sleep.Play had SOMETHING right, even if their "connection error" problem was a big one. Many games you couldn't even get into if you tried with all the error messages but once you were IN a game, lag seemed nearly non-existant even with overseas players.

 

It was worth a shot and I thank you for enlightening me, Vanthem. But apparently it's just the game's matchmaking that causes the lag for some of us. I tell you, I have been growing more and more frustrated with this game. I really want to have a fair fight with some skilled players but it seems that is a pipe dream as of now. I was really looking forward to the inevitable competitive scene but if these issues persist, I won't be taking part and I can honestly see myself putting this game on my shelf.I hate to be so downtrodden but this is my reality lol

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Fender Bender
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Re: At risk of sounding like a whiner

Apr 17, 2013

Don't give up just yet, Crush.  Could simply be you didn't throttle your upload enough, could be your QoS isn't quite set right, could be a number of things.  My schedule's going to be a bit hectic for a while, but I'll see about PM'ing you with more details, try to get a bit deeper into the troubleshooting side of things since I still think buffer bloat is really the issue here and we haven't exhausted all options yet, that was just preliminary steps.

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She's going to have to fall on her sword. Which means that we have to stick one in the ground, trip her onto it and get someone to jump up and down on her back for ten minutes. --

Malcolm Tucker. Modern day saint.
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