01-16-2013 11:33 AM
From what I've noticed, the PP updated automatically. Even the PP in the thumbnails changed as soon as the game updated.
01-16-2013 12:27 PM - edited 01-16-2013 12:41 PM
Having messed around with the recent Daytona High Speed race, I happen to have several cars set up pretty much to identical power and weight spece. 897hp, 1500kg.
It is particularly telling when you look at one of the fastest cars in terms of raw speed, the Mercedes SL 600 ('04) and compare it to one of the "average fast" cars the Zonda C12S ('00). The SL is FR. The Zonda naturally is MR.
The SL is 29kg heavy but still, as I said, it's very much faster that the Zonda. The PPs? SL - 555. Zonda - 625... Aero is part of this, obviously, as is drag coefficents, etc (though lower drag obviously does not seem to help the Zonda make a top speed...) And actually, my fastest car at this spec, the SLR ('03) comes in at 649PP. Naturally it is also FR... What is it about the SL600 which gives it such a low PP compared to simular cars?
PPs obviously ain't raw speed. I think the Ovals throw a false feeling on them. Discounting Ovals, which is a better measure for a fair race, PPs, or power/weight? This is what we need to be talking before we decide if this is broken and if the patch made it worse or not.
Though it does look that way. I agree. You'd have to absolutely GUT the Zonda to enter the same race with the SL, based on PPs. Looks like it would be absolutely no contest at all...
Looks like we may need another patch pretty quick on this...
01-16-2013 12:29 PM
01-16-2013 12:37 PM
01-16-2013 01:24 PM
Discounting Ovals, which is a better measure for a fair race, PPs, or power/weight? This is what we need to be talking before we decide if this is broken and if the patch made it worse or not.
Pre-2.09, I'd have said pp if stock cars and power/weight if tuned (and with equal aero applied). There were a few 10-ish packs of stock cars within 2%pp that all went within one second per lap (at an average track like GP/D or RC-Indy). I figured some cars were under or overrated by 5%pp before 2.10, so it looks like these adjustments (often ~20%) won't likely be helping overall.
Just to pick an example - Adjusting the Sciotaru triplets down to 385ish from 413 is the wrong way - it kept up to 420-440pp cars just fine before, and some of those 420-440pp cars have gone unchanged.
I also smell an upcoming patch to address or redress this one.
01-16-2013 02:09 PM
Over the past few months I've been doing a little research into the PP system (because I'm a major Geek on this game). As you are all pretty much aware, the HSC has previously been the "fastest" car in the game. This was based on a PP level of 497. The "fast" rating of a car is how close to it's PP level it is performing. If you set a lap in the HSC at 450PP, 500PP, 525PP 550PP and record the lap times, based on this information you can formulate what I assume is a good formula to work out: if a vectra at 409PP is 11.1 seconds slower over a lap (which it is give or take) then based on it's recalculated time (what the HSC would approx get at 409PP then this particular car is 2.6 seconds from it's PP level. So from this (sorry getting pretty technical) a Vectra is virtually the same "fastness" (excuse the english) as a McLaren F1, even though the PP's & times are very very different, they both ran at about 2.6s from the HSC pace at their individual PP levels (409 & 616 respectively). This is all based on base PP with the following options added (all at default setting i.e. no user tuning): RS Tyres, Full Suspension, all drivetrain parts (no LSD if already fitted), Transmission, cars heavier than 1500kg were lowered to below this by body/chassis stage's in Tuning shop (again first default setting below 1500kg), a wing added (at only 5 setting) to all cars over 500PP base, increase weight on cars under 850kg. A specific track (which i know extremely well) that has top gear straights, tight turns, fast corners, ect... a good allrounder.
"Quick" cars included: NSX (Obviously), Evora, LFA, Nardo, M3 CSL, Zonda's, ... basically every car you see 10/12 of in an online race. People were pretty quick to figure out the NSX, M3 CSL first time around.
An NSX is quick at 550PP (even though it actually loses time from it's "ideal" PP level) because it is still only 1s from it's ultimate PP where as an F430 for example (542PP), would need to gain 1.5s from it's 2.5s "off the pace time" in only 8PP to match the NSX's time, even if tuned perfectly this is always a difficult task & was probably never acheived in the past 2 years so the NSX alway won by a minimum of 7 seconds over a 5 lap race unless the driver was particually useless. An "Average car" was around 2.5 off the pace & could be tuned up/down to improve it's pace, if tuned incorrectly a "fast car" at 400PP quickly became useless at 470PP.
Inputting the new PP levels into the data I have (the lap times do not change) all they have done here is change the "Quick" cars in the game & you will now have to figure these out. Some lose... massively, but others are improved massively too (like a previous post the 3400s is crazy (2s (actual) faster at 484PP than the HSC at 497PP)) but the logic is still exactly the same. Most of the major winners are "Japanese Classic's" who's PP level is really low anyway, this makes perfect sence as these can now be tuned to a respectable raceable level & although they technically lose time "based on all of the above" they will be more competative against a car that is naturally around that level.
If you can figure out the "Fastest car" (closest to it's PP level) then everything else will fall into place, as tuning can be done on this new level. I assume that there will be another update shortly to sort out the 3400s & a few others but nothing has changed here. The HSC is now just "fairly quick" the NSX is now "Fairly quick" those of you who have 15 of these at various PP levels are now going to get smashed by virtual unknowns before this update, end of. Soon lobby title's will include the phase "no Bluebird" instead of "No NSX" or "No LFA".
A Vanquish is now 3s (actual) seconds faster than an NSX with only a 10PP increase, tough. Previously the Vanquish was 3s (actual) faster than the NSX but with a 60PP increase, hence making it slower when raced at the same level (10PP roughly 1s). I smashed people up with my specific Vanquish at 540PP (tuned to within an inch of it's life pulling back 1.6s in less than 10PP) now i'll have to tune an NSX to smash the Vanquish. Simples...
Fast cars now include (Based on their respective PP levels):
|S||Nissan||Silvia (CSP311) '65|
|S||Nissan||Bluebird Hardtop 1800SSS (910) '79|
|S||Nissan||Skyline HT 2000GT-R (KPGC10) '70|
|S||Nissan||Fairlady 2000 (SR311) '68|
|S||Alfa Romeo||Spider 1600 Duetto '66|
|S||Nissan||Fairlady Z 280Z-L 2seater (S130) '78|
|S||Nissan||Skyline 2000GT-B (S54B) '67|
|S||Nissan||Silvia Varietta (S15) '00|
|S||Toyota||Celica 1600GT (TA22) '70|
|S||Mazda||Savanna RX-7 GT-Limited (FC) '85|
|P||Mazda||RX-7 GT-X (FC) '90|
|S||Chevrolet||Corvette Convertible (C1) '54|
|S||Mazda||MX-5 S-Special I (NA, J) '95|
|P||Mercedes-Benz||300 SL Coupe '54|
|S||Nissan||Silvia K's (S13) '91|
|S||Nissan||Skyline GTS-t Type M (R32) '89|
|S||Jaguar||E Type Coupe '61|
|C||Pontiac||Solstice Coupe Concept '02|
|S||Lexus||IS 300 Sport Cross '01|
|P||Chevrolet||Camaro Z28 '69|
|S||Toyota||Supra **bleep**-R '97|
|S||Aston Martin||Vanquish '04|
I fully expect those to feature heavily in online races, especially those that have a pretty healthy base PP level & a large tuning spectrum.
Throw away all of your previous ideas on what was a "fast" car, like CD's, these are now gone, bigger better things are out there.
01-16-2013 03:56 PM
01-16-2013 07:12 PM
If we look at how REAL racing series handicap unequal cars, we can quickly see that there really isn't a 'one size fits all' mathematical approach to it all. Real race series (BTCC, for instance) will add or remove ballast as the series progresses to try to even out the racing.
Expecting PD to succeed at something the pros fail at is simply asking too much. This wide brush to solve specific problems does not seem to have done anything than upset a system that wasn't well balanced in the first place. Perhaps it is time for PD to address the issue the same way the pros do? On a per-car basis. By testing and comparing. And seeing how different cars stack up against each other. The mathematical approach has not worked.
I know it's a hair OT, but I often wish that limiters and ballast could be disabled by room hosts, or at least restricted to a maximum value. This might go a long way to reducing the confusion that upgrading THEN downgrading cars wildly outside a specified PP for a race tends to make. But, I guess, maybe we all expect too much from the PP system. Even the pros can't figure it out!
01-16-2013 09:01 PM
Ultimately at the 450 to 550 pp range, that seems to dominate the open lounges, there were a few ringer cars that were begining to make those rooms very one dimensional. Now i'm not saying that the new model is'nt without fault but what is? Grab a few new cars, test and tune, and see if you can beat my Mustang SVT Cobra 00' that is finally competitive, or watch me struggle with an NSX that now has way too much HP at 500 pp and feels like a go cart. Time to be a Tuner. After two years of this game you should be able to adjust and make the most of it. The new guys never really new the difference. We have seen numerous updates. Tires being a hugh one,and we all made the adjustment on both the league level and the open lounge level so I would expect this community to make the adjustments and move on to great racing instead of the " oh il just pull that ringer out of my hat" approach. Come on people with 1000 cars we can surely over come a simple math problem, repaint it, stage 3 evrything , and a fiem grip on your wheel, press start and it will all be back to normal...well sort of...CHEERS!!!!