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Apr 07 2009
By: Elsa Gaming Beast 2054 posts
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... "there are no female soldiers"...

130 replies 102 views Edited Apr 7, 2009
When women ask for female avatars in a shooter game we almost always hear the argument that "there are no women soldiers in real life" - yeah, some guys throw that around like it's a fact.  My usual response to this claim is fairly short - it's a VIDEO GAME.  If you want realism, then lets make games so that you do endless patrols where absolutely nothing happens... then you hit a roadside bomb and die - and you can never play the game again.
However, that argument isn't what I really want to say... what I want to say is "but there ARE female soldiers"!  Unfortunately this response would then require a very, very long post to prove it.
 
Just for fun, I've taken each of the Killzone classes and will just briefly illustrate a real life example:
 
Rifleman Class:  
Canada has had women in the Infantry since 1989, but in 2006 we lost our first female infantry officer in battle.  Her name was Nichola Goddard and she served as a forward observation officer (a front line ground troop who co-ordinates artillary fire into enemy locations).  She was in the Princess Patricia Light Infantry unit and died during a firefight with the Taliban in Afghanistan.  This wasn't a "surprise" attack... she was part of a unit that was attacking a mosque that apparently held 15 taliban members.
 
Medic Class:
Female American Army nurses received 1,619 medals, citations and commendations during WWII.  Sixteen of those were posthumous awards for those that died under enemy fire.  Overall, 201 nurses died while serving.  It doesn't take much reading to find how close these women were to enemy lines and that many performed their duties under direct enemy fire.  Historically and currently, women have often served in medical capacities under fire during wartime.  There were just too many individuals in this category to even bother naming one.
 
Engineer Class:
Colonel Debra Lewis (U.S. Corp of Army Engineers) was appointed the Commander and District Engineer of the Gulf Region in 2006 - the first woman to hold this position in a war zone.  Apparently women can build stuff just fine.
 
Tactician Class:
In 2008, Ann Dunwoody became the first four star General in the U.S. Army.  As a three star General she was the Army's Deputy Chief of Staff, G-4 (logistics).  There are approximately 28 other Generals or Admirals in the American military who also happen to be female... and have the tactical leadership responsibilities of those roles.
 
Assault Class:
Again, there are many historical examples of women warriors including the female Dahomy "Amazons" of the late 1800's, but to take a more recent example, I've selected Sgt Leigh Ann Hester.  She served as an American MP in Iraq in 2005 and  was awarded both the Silver Star and the Distinguished Service Cross for her actions when an American supply convoy was attacked.  She and her squad flanked the enemy and assaulted a trench line with hand grenades and grenade launcher rounds.  Hester killed at least 3 enemies with her M4 assault rifle and they succeeded in clearing two trenches.  The battle ended with 27 dead insurgents, 5 wounded and 1 captured.  
While American female soldiers are not technically permitted to serve in the front lines, there are no "front lines" in today's wars and over 61 female American soldiers have died during combat or enemy attacks in Iraq.
 
Saboteur Class:
During WWII many women served in the British Special Operations Executive - an arm that facilitated espionage and sabotage behind enemy lines.  Women were sent in to organize and lead resistance cells where they couriered vital information and where they also led attacks on small enemy installations.  Throughout history, it has not been unusual for women to serve as spies and saboteurs.
 
Scout (sniper) Class:
Lyudmila Pavilchenko is a famed female Russian sniper who made 309 confirmed sniper kills (including 36 enemy snipers) during WWII.  She was one of the approximately 2000 female snipers in the Red Army.   Russia experienced a manpower shortage during this war and actively recruited women into the military as snipers, pilots, machine gunners and tank crew members.  
 
My point is not to say that women are common in the military... but it's to say that yes, there have been and ARE women soldiers.  The next time a woman starts a thread to ask why there are no female avatars in a game, please do not show how uneducated you are by responding with "but there are no women soldiers".
 
I'm Canadian - where women serve on ships, submarines, as pilots and are not barred from any aspect of the Canadian military (though to date, they have only served in support roles in our Special Forces unit).  I guess I just come from a country or culture where it's acceptable and "normal" for women to serve in any military role for which they prove themselves capable.  Then again, Canada is a country that has quietly already had a female Prime Minister.  
 
It would have been nice to have female avatars in Killzone, though being an FPS game it's not as big a deal.  However, if they add additional classes at some point, I do hope that GG will at least give some consideration to making the character model female - maybe based on the KZ2 character of Evelyn Batton... a weapons developer who can be field testing a brand new weapon (and the Helgast got the prototype for field testing too!)
 
Anyway... just wanted to make the point that saying "there are no female soldiers" is rather like saying "men can't cook"!  While your average guy might figure sliced weiners in Kraft Dinner is actually a "recipe" - many of the world's most famous chefs are male!
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Sackboy
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Re: ... "there are no female soldiers"...

Apr 7, 2009
very well put together post.  Kudos from me.
immerume2
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Fender Bender
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Re: ... "there are no female soldiers"...

Apr 7, 2009
I have a 16 year old daughter and taught her to speak her mind and I always appreciate seeing women speak up on issues like this!  Kudos  and maybe they will follow R2 and add female skins down the road till the developers realize they're isolating a growing part of the gaming community...  Its up to the women to speak loudly enough to be heard though.  Don't back down!  Thanks again for helping my daughter 
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I Only Post Everything
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Re: ... "there are no female soldiers"...

Apr 7, 2009

Zzzzz....

 

Didn't we have like 20 pages of this already not too long ago?

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Fender Bender
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Re: ... "there are no female soldiers"...

Apr 7, 2009

ComfortabIyNumb wrote:

Zzzzz....

 

Didn't we have like 20 pages of this already not too long ago?


The argument on that thread was hardly this detailed...  Relax guy, chill buddy, and you need a vacation friend  

 

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Treasure Hunter
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Re: ... "there are no female soldiers"...

Apr 7, 2009

I want female soldiers, but I mean look at MGS4, there were no female characters in MGO, but most of the main characters in the story were female.

 

Its rare that female soldiers are in mulitplayer, so leave GG alone. Axceptions are UT3 and R2 recently.  

 

 

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I Only Post Everything
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Re: ... "there are no female soldiers"...

Apr 7, 2009

furyus01 wrote:

ComfortabIyNumb wrote:

Zzzzz....

 

Didn't we have like 20 pages of this already not too long ago?


The argument on that thread was hardly this detailed...  Relax guy, chill buddy, and you need a vacation friend  

 


1) I'm actually a woman. To be honest, I find these types of arguments rather pointless in relation to video games. This is a first person shooter, in a make-believe video game world; I don't care if I'm playing as a man, woman, alien, zombie, whatever. This isn't real life, so I hardly care what my character looks like. 

 

2) I fail to see the point in posts like this. For the most part it's an argument that woman can be soldiers (which I fully agree with) but I don't see how it has much to do with Killzone 2 other than the fact that she found women who fit the description of each class. 

 

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Treasure Hunter
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Re: ... "there are no female soldiers"...

Apr 7, 2009

ComfortabIyNumb wrote:

furyus01 wrote:

ComfortabIyNumb wrote:

Zzzzz....

 

Didn't we have like 20 pages of this already not too long ago?


The argument on that thread was hardly this detailed...  Relax guy, chill buddy, and you need a vacation friend  

 


1) I'm actually a woman. To be honest, I find these types of arguments rather pointless in relation to video games. This is a first person shooter, in a make-believe video game world; I don't care if I'm playing as a man, woman, alien, zombie, whatever. This isn't real life, so I hardly care what my character looks like. 

 

2) I fail to see the point in posts like this. For the most part it's an argument that woman can be soldiers (which I fully agree with) but I don't see how it has much to do with Killzone 2 other than the fact that she found women who fit the description of each class. 

 


I actualy want characters like Luger again, that would be cool.  

 

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Treasure Hunter
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Re: ... "there are no female soldiers"...

Apr 7, 2009

Crystal-Mask wrote:

I want female soldiers, but I mean look at MGS4, there were no female characters in MGO, but most of the main characters in the story were female.

 

Its rare that female soldiers are in mulitplayer, so leave GG alone. Axceptions are UT3 and R2 recently.  

 

 


They just added female characters

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Fender Bender
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Re: ... "there are no female soldiers"...

Apr 7, 2009

ComfortabIyNumb wrote:

furyus01 wrote:

ComfortabIyNumb wrote:

Zzzzz....

 

Didn't we have like 20 pages of this already not too long ago?


The argument on that thread was hardly this detailed...  Relax guy, chill buddy, and you need a vacation friend  

 


1) I'm actually a woman. To be honest, I find these types of arguments rather pointless in relation to video games. This is a first person shooter, in a make-believe video game world; I don't care if I'm playing as a man, woman, alien, zombie, whatever. This isn't real life, so I hardly care what my character looks like. 

 

2) I fail to see the point in posts like this. For the most part it's an argument that woman can be soldiers (which I fully agree with) but I don't see how it has much to do with Killzone 2 other than the fact that she found women who fit the description of each class. 

 


The "buddy, guy, & friend" stuff was a South Park reference not me assuming your a dude  1. Your entitled to your opinion but isn't the OP entitled to hers as well?  Many women would not agree with you on this...  2. She did her research to make her case backing her claim.  In a forum full of Opinions and not information (for the most part) I would think you would appreciate that its thought out and intelligently put whether you agree with it or not.

 

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