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Lombax Warrior
Registered: 11/18/2006
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Re: FIX THE CONTROLS!

Feb 8, 2011

Blows KZ2 controls out the water!!  Finally got it rite. Guns still have weight to them but now it doesn't feel like you have 5 pound ankle weights strapped  on each arm!! Great job GG.

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Splicer
Registered: 07/19/2009
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Re: FIX THE CONTROLS!

Feb 8, 2011

Its pretty hypocritical how some idiots here say learn to adapt and then go and complain about some other feature about the game. Can't adapt to that? Or maybe you just want the game you like to improve. Same way improve the controls and KZ3 will be the best FPS for a long time.

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Fender Bender
Registered: 05/15/2009
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Re: FIX THE CONTROLS!

Feb 9, 2011

heckler82 wrote:

Maybe Im just reading your post wrong, but i get the vibe that you think I work for GG...I dont. If not then my bad

Ive always cared about differing points of view and not what will sell. Its not my place to tell someone what they should or shouldnt like in a game. If they dont like it, its no sweat off my ***. Ill still play what I want

Custard - Smacked On Your Gob!
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I know you don't work for GG. I'm just being very bitter about the fact that most of the VIPs and beta-testers ran around discussing what they thought would sell the most, rather than game-mechanics and gameplay, or even testing data, around the killzone 2 launch.

This was without any doubt at all a very important factor in the decision GG made to neuter the game-design in KZ2, and make it into a twitch-shooter - even though no one really asked for that at all. But with the VIPs and the beta-testers you had a constant stream of justifications for anything that went towards what they thought was more "popular", rather than what actually worked. And we got KZ2 as it is now - a complete clusterfuck that's way too fast for the size of the maps, or the abilities and movement in the game.

That ridiculous "popularity" argument also was the reason why the lag was never considered a problem - because "most people" didn't complain, according to the ones in the know. "Most people", apparently, liked playing the game at sub-20 fps with warping. Soon after, the amount of players in the game dropped from way over 100.000 a week to less than 30.000. The amount of people who played the game sank while the game went platinum - that's how bad the online game plays.

And now we have KZ3 - a game that's made on the same design premise as the patched apart KZ2: twitch-shooter with slow gameplay core. Where meta-gaming tricks work, thanks to the quick controls. But where the game doesn't really make sense unless you play it more slowly and deliberately. It's the "combo" of allowing both play-styles in the game - but which ends up simply creating a game where you really only have one single tactic, and where any of the "cancel out" abilities are massively overpowered in practice, when the game isn't "played nicely". We had somewhere around 90% of the beta-testers in the closed beta picking up on this, and wondering in disbelief what in the world was going on.

The thing is that at the time with KZ2, I said that if this didn't actually pay off. If changing the controls and ruining the game didn't - in spite of assurances from certain other VIPs - actually increase the sales... then we would all see how endlessly stupid it was for GG to ruin their game over "potentially" wooing in a few more twitching grinders. And so we did - the game didn't sell more, or sell faster because of the patching - in fact the opposite happened.

But now we have two games (with gorgeous graphics) that has broken gameplay, no balance whatsoever, and a system that favours meta-gaming over any other style of play. And somehow the amount of complaints on the internet about controls and bull is exactly the same as around the KZ2 launch. Does that mean GG is going to change the game again? Of course not - this time, you all see the complaints for what it is. And that there's no way to placate these folks, even if you give them specifcally what they ask for.

This is also exactly the same as what happened with MAG, Resistance 2, as well as Uncharted (thought they held back on that for quite long). The idea was, as it is now with KZ3, that no matter how good a game-design - if "people want" something different, then they should be given it, because that would make the game more popular.

But in the meantime, KZ2 is ruined - it doesn't work, it doesn't hang together. And KZ3 is a twitch-shooter. And those games are never going to be good games because of that. That's the reality of the promotion effort that creeps into game-design, and that's why I scoff at the idea that you folks are "open" for what "people want". You're not - you've always gone for whatever you believe is the most "common" opinion. Even when that is based on trolls and duplicate accounts on the internet.

It's the same with "being open about what people think will work". That's fine, it's possible to be open for other suggestions. But that's not what happened. It wasn't a discussion, where everyone had a say. What happened was that the game-mechanics were decided were good or bad based on the amount of people insisting they were awesome. And the VIPs facilitated that happening by not being able, perhaps, to see the difference between "people say it works", and "it actually works as expected in practice when testing it". Or perhaps they made it happen because they truly believe that if trolls on the internet like something, it's going to generate good press. "If only we can convince trolls to work for us!". Doesn't work, you see.

Frankly, it annoys me a great deal that none of you can admit this kind of thing is a serious problem, and that it's going to kill the franchise for good. That this type of promotion effort - where the game-design is trashed in the name of "good PR" - is so counter-productive that it's really going to have repercussions for Sony outside of just that one game at a time. Instead, it's going to cause problems for Sony's studios when trying to pitch their titles, as well as cause studios to disappear.

But hey, whatever. We had this earlier with Sony folks when I covered phones as well. The producer folks were obsessed with controlling information flow - because they were desperately scared of negative feedback. So what they did was two things:

1. never take feedback seriously. After all, their product was awesome, and anyone suggesting real changes were idiots.

2. bow to majority pressure. Because 100 people on the internet couldn't be wrong!

So they literally committed to cheap and easy fixes in the face of "the masses". Hoping that this would be enough to get "everyone" seeing how much they "supported the community". While of course never addressing the serious problems, and therefore in the end not having more than those 100 customers. Who then bought the product out of sheer fandom.

And what happens? A repeat of that, just with slight modifications. Where the "community" doesn't take feedback seriously - no matter how good it is. I'm not talking about mine specifically now, I'm talking about the ones in the beta who were simply ignored, or just trash-talked out of the beta completely. While the rest who like the product have justified themselves on that this time, the product has mass appeal, so now I can like it safely on Gaf without being a mindless fan!

Hopeless.

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Fender Bender
Registered: 07/09/2007
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Re: FIX THE CONTROLS!

Feb 9, 2011

When your brain tells your hand to move, it doesn't wait half a second to move your hand. If that was the case, this post would probably look more lijf rhgd! THAT is not realistic.

The controls of KZ2 really split the community in half. I know a lot of people who were going to buy KZ2 decided NOT to buy it based on the controls after playing the demo. Myself included.

The controls of KZ3 still have a weight feel to them, but are much tighter. MOST people will feel that is better. It seems to be the best of both worlds.

If developers just ignored what was complained about the most in their last game, than they can basically expect the same sales as the last game because only the people who were happy with KZ2 would buy KZ3 if they had the same controls.

I'll bet 85% of PS3 users are happy with the new controls, while 15% miss the old controls.

15% game sales Vs. 85% ... The majority wins, get used to the new controls.

.. and FUTHERMORE, do you realize you're reading my signature?!?

Gameplays, Reviews, Playstation Move videos, ect... www.youtube.com/farmhousemedia3000
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Fender Bender
Registered: 05/15/2009
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Re: FIX THE CONTROLS!

Feb 9, 2011

Maccaspan wrote:

The controls of KZ2 really split the community in half. I know a lot of people who were going to buy KZ2 decided NOT to buy it based on the controls after playing the demo. Myself included.

The controls of KZ3 still have a weight feel to them, but are much tighter. MOST people will feel that is better. It seems to be the best of both worlds.

And where are the numbers proving any of those things, hmm? That's right - they don't exist. In fact, the sales and statistics for number of players online is extremely clear. It doesn't have a "tendency" towards "suggesting" that "perhaps half" of the community left. It notes without ambiguity that the vast majority of the people who played the game online once - never played it online again.

This tendency has been unchanged since the first week when the controls were neutered in KZ2. It continued when the title went platinum. It also continued with the beta for KZ3, to the point where they had to invite more people to the beta to get anyone playing.

But noooh.. MOST PEOPLE. It's been declared by random guy on the internet! It must be true! In spite of the statistics and number clearly proving the rank opposite.. Seriously..when are you guys going to be happy? When all COD gamers in the world lay down and purr every time Killzone is mentioned? It's not realistic to expect that, you know..

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Fender Bender
Registered: 08/27/2007
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Re: FIX THE CONTROLS!

Feb 9, 2011

fleinn wrote:

heckler82 wrote:

Maybe Im just reading your post wrong, but i get the vibe that you think I work for GG...I dont. If not then my bad

Ive always cared about differing points of view and not what will sell. Its not my place to tell someone what they should or shouldnt like in a game. If they dont like it, its no sweat off my ***. Ill still play what I want

Custard - Smacked On Your Gob!
Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

I know you don't work for GG. I'm just being very bitter about the fact that most of the VIPs and beta-testers ran around discussing what they thought would sell the most, rather than game-mechanics and gameplay, or even testing data, around the killzone 2 launch.

This was without any doubt at all a very important factor in the decision GG made to neuter the game-design in KZ2, and make it into a twitch-shooter - even though no one really asked for that at all. But with the VIPs and the beta-testers you had a constant stream of justifications for anything that went towards what they thought was more "popular", rather than what actually worked. And we got KZ2 as it is now - a complete clusterfuck that's way too fast for the size of the maps, or the abilities and movement in the game.

That ridiculous "popularity" argument also was the reason why the lag was never considered a problem - because "most people" didn't complain, according to the ones in the know. "Most people", apparently, liked playing the game at sub-20 fps with warping. Soon after, the amount of players in the game dropped from way over 100.000 a week to less than 30.000. The amount of people who played the game sank while the game went platinum - that's how bad the online game plays.

And now we have KZ3 - a game that's made on the same design premise as the patched apart KZ2: twitch-shooter with slow gameplay core. Where meta-gaming tricks work, thanks to the quick controls. But where the game doesn't really make sense unless you play it more slowly and deliberately. It's the "combo" of allowing both play-styles in the game - but which ends up simply creating a game where you really only have one single tactic, and where any of the "cancel out" abilities are massively overpowered in practice, when the game isn't "played nicely". We had somewhere around 90% of the beta-testers in the closed beta picking up on this, and wondering in disbelief what in the world was going on.

The thing is that at the time with KZ2, I said that if this didn't actually pay off. If changing the controls and ruining the game didn't - in spite of assurances from certain other VIPs - actually increase the sales... then we would all see how endlessly stupid it was for GG to ruin their game over "potentially" wooing in a few more twitching grinders. And so we did - the game didn't sell more, or sell faster because of the patching - in fact the opposite happened.

But now we have two games (with gorgeous graphics) that has broken gameplay, no balance whatsoever, and a system that favours meta-gaming over any other style of play. And somehow the amount of complaints on the internet about controls and bull is exactly the same as around the KZ2 launch. Does that mean GG is going to change the game again? Of course not - this time, you all see the complaints for what it is. And that there's no way to placate these folks, even if you give them specifcally what they ask for.

This is also exactly the same as what happened with MAG, Resistance 2, as well as Uncharted (thought they held back on that for quite long). The idea was, as it is now with KZ3, that no matter how good a game-design - if "people want" something different, then they should be given it, because that would make the game more popular.

But in the meantime, KZ2 is ruined - it doesn't work, it doesn't hang together. And KZ3 is a twitch-shooter. And those games are never going to be good games because of that. That's the reality of the promotion effort that creeps into game-design, and that's why I scoff at the idea that you folks are "open" for what "people want". You're not - you've always gone for whatever you believe is the most "common" opinion. Even when that is based on trolls and duplicate accounts on the internet.

It's the same with "being open about what people think will work". That's fine, it's possible to be open for other suggestions. But that's not what happened. It wasn't a discussion, where everyone had a say. What happened was that the game-mechanics were decided were good or bad based on the amount of people insisting they were awesome. And the VIPs facilitated that happening by not being able, perhaps, to see the difference between "people say it works", and "it actually works as expected in practice when testing it". Or perhaps they made it happen because they truly believe that if trolls on the internet like something, it's going to generate good press. "If only we can convince trolls to work for us!". Doesn't work, you see.

Frankly, it annoys me a great deal that none of you can admit this kind of thing is a serious problem, and that it's going to kill the franchise for good. That this type of promotion effort - where the game-design is trashed in the name of "good PR" - is so counter-productive that it's really going to have repercussions for Sony outside of just that one game at a time. Instead, it's going to cause problems for Sony's studios when trying to pitch their titles, as well as cause studios to disappear.

But hey, whatever. We had this earlier with Sony folks when I covered phones as well. The producer folks were obsessed with controlling information flow - because they were desperately scared of negative feedback. So what they did was two things:

1. never take feedback seriously. After all, their product was awesome, and anyone suggesting real changes were idiots.

2. bow to majority pressure. Because 100 people on the internet couldn't be wrong!

So they literally committed to cheap and easy fixes in the face of "the masses". Hoping that this would be enough to get "everyone" seeing how much they "supported the community". While of course never addressing the serious problems, and therefore in the end not having more than those 100 customers. Who then bought the product out of sheer fandom.

And what happens? A repeat of that, just with slight modifications. Where the "community" doesn't take feedback seriously - no matter how good it is. I'm not talking about mine specifically now, I'm talking about the ones in the beta who were simply ignored, or just trash-talked out of the beta completely. While the rest who like the product have justified themselves on that this time, the product has mass appeal, so now I can like it safely on Gaf without being a mindless fan!

Hopeless.

Honestly I didnt read your entire post. The second sentence is what is bothering me. I dont know why you seem to think that there is some big conspiricay with the VIP's and the beta testers doing what you claim we did. Ill say this once. We have absolutely ZERO pull on what goes into the game. I dont know where GG got their ideas from, but we dont sit in a little pow wow and conspire on how to sell the game better. I really wish you would stop making accusations that you cant back up other than "I said so"

Custard - Smacked On Your Gob!
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Uncharted Territory
Registered: 09/23/2008
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Re: FIX THE CONTROLS!

Feb 9, 2011

Canont believe this is at 6 pages. This is very non-issue for me. Not a fan of "control threads" after the storm of them came when KZ2 came about.

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Survivor
Registered: 03/14/2008
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Re: FIX THE CONTROLS!

Feb 9, 2011

My only complaint would be to fix the shotguns range. Theirs no way in hell some one across the room can get a head shot with that thing.



"I'm not a failure because I didn't win, I'm a failure because I didn't try." - Kev

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Uncharted Territory
Registered: 12/19/2008
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Re: FIX THE CONTROLS!

Feb 9, 2011

I think there should be more of a weight feeling. I didn't really like KZ2s controls. Clicking R3 to toggle ADS and all, but I loved the feeling of weight, which has been mostly taken out. It's still there, but barely.

Better than nothing I guess....

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Wastelander
Registered: 02/23/2010
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Re: FIX THE CONTROLS!

Feb 9, 2011

what do you mean about "floating guns"? and yeah, the controls are ok on kz3, kz2 was ok 2, it was just a matter of getting used to it.


Get your Portable ID!

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