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Wastelander
Registered: 12/11/2010
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Re: The Tradegy that occurred

Jul 21, 2012

The daughter of a high school friend was at Columbine.  This kind of tragedy affects everyone who was there and will leave scars that will last a lifetime.  Some will never get over it.

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: The Tradegy that occurred

Jul 21, 2012

My son relayed this to me when the Batman ad appeared the other day.

I can't imagine the horrific nature of anything like this, nor would I want to live through it.

 

I find it curious that whenever something like this happens though, the talk isn't of the victims, their pain or their loss.

 

The talk instead turns to the pecrceived "source" of the problem, and blame is immediately cast where it least belongs.

 

Guns are like anything else, they require education and caring ownership.

 

The keyboard I type on right now requires no less care, nor the Van I once drove. 

 

I like that Pcture of the woman with the gun. I know it sounds weird. I once read about a program that allowed women in a city with a huge rape crisis to get educated, trained and then to carry a pistol. In the 1st year rapes dropped over 90%. They dropped another 80% the next year, yet the murder rate stayed consistant with past trends. The difference was that the people involved were only allowed to carry AFTER they had been trained, and after they had been counciled on when and how and why.

 

We've all heard the stories of some child that found a gun an accidentally shot a sibling or a parent. I can tell you I've heard and seen just as many of these stories where the gun owner started training their child early on about guns, what they were for, how to use them, and when. They didn't have tales of tragedy and woe, they had tales of responsible, educated children.

 

In Germany, they had regular public service ads that showed a motorcycle rider how not to die when a car pulled out in front of you. It taught and demonstrated how to jump up off the bike and not just sit there and wait to hit the car with it. Granted at 80 it's going to be a rough ride, but in cities where speeds were slower, that commercial time saved many lives. People weren't demonized for owning motorcycles. People weren't hauled out of the offending car and lynched by torch and pitchfork carrying villagers whipped into a media frenzy. They were educated about a danger, and taught what to do to survive and avoid it.

 

Guns require an educated and responsible owner and an educated and responsible public.

 

And please, the only reason to carry a gun is not to be overt.

 

It's a tool like any other. Police do not carry weapons just to intimidate or be overt. They carry them because there are situations where they need them. That doesn't mean they were well trained in when to use them or how. When an 8 year old is killed by a stray bullet fired by an officer at a car that refuses to stop, it's just as tragic. Especially when it's "officers" and there's 9 shots. Or when it's someone who is shot for reaching for a cell phone. 

 

The problem is education. There isn't any. All we hear is "guns are bad".

 

They're not.

 

People are bad.

 

People like the loser that thinks going into a theater and taking his frustrations out on innocent people are the problem.

People that think walking into a mall or a school and killing others is the problem.

 

It won't change if you take away guns. It willl get worse.

 

The problem is that we make excuses for people that do these things. They get more justice and fair treatment than any of their victims. They get 83 life sentences, an orange jump suit, 3 meals a day, heat, hot water, a library and cable TV. We treat people like this better than we do our homeless and our poor, except maybe for the showers...

 

The reality is simply that people like this don't need to be on earth anymore. They have demonstrated with clear intent they don't belong here. They should sent away permanently.

 

Not because taking them out somehow equals justice, but simply to say to every other person of like mind DON'T.

We don't accept this kind of thing, and you will go away for good if you try it.

 

Until that happens, guns or not, these events will repeat themselves.

Whether by gun, knife, pipe bomb, van bomb or base ball bat, they will continue to happen.

 

Until people who commit acts like this are taken out of the equation, we will have to continue trying to explain to the families of 12 people why their loved ones aren't coming home anymore. We will continue to have to explain to parents why their children aren't coming home today. We will have to continue to explain and apologize to the innocent why we couldn't keep them safe because we let the cancer hang around and it spread.

 

Then we will have to continue to have to watch glamorized glossy media coverage of dragged out trials and watch wealthy men get away with it, poor men get locked away in a retirement home with bars and twisted men get put into intstitutions instead of being able to sleep at night because the cancer was removed from society and not allowed to hang around and pollute the rest of the body of humanity.

 

The problem is with people, not the things they use to kill other people.

 

If carrying a pistol lets you feel safe and lets you sleep at night, and you are a RESPONSIBLE adult who knows what it is, how to use and most importantly WHEN to use it, I have no problem... and likely no quarrel.. with you.

 

All taking guns away will do is make people like this get even more creative.

 

That's a far scarier thought to me than guns will ever be.

 

We have failed in modern day society to recognize what we're doing to ourselves.

We should not be surprised when we see the results.

Yet we continue to blame something else and turn a blind eye and clamor for for things that will only make it easier to become cattle.

 

My heart is with the families of those that were hurt or killed in all of this.

 

My thoughts are with them.

 

Not stuck on pointing a finger...

 

"Bad gun... Bad gun..!"

 

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Gaming Beast
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Re: The Tradegy that occurred

Jul 21, 2012

Nice post Dan. My heart goes out to the victims families. Such a senseless crime.

 

My bro and I were taught from around age 5 or so by our dad how to shoot, clean, and above all else RESPECT guns. My dad had a concealed weapons permit and my bro has one. I never tried to get one because I don't need one.

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MVP Support
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Re: The Tradegy that occurred

Jul 21, 2012

Sorry, guys, but I don't agree. The punks using handguns or assault rifles as a symbol of power don't give two hoots about respect in our sense of the word. To them, it's a sense of terrorism and bullying - unadulterated and unbridled power. The ease of a coward being able to pull a trigger while weilding that kind of power is too much and it takes control of them. They only care about themselves, no-one else. Bystanders don't matter, nobody else does but them. To them, respect (from their peers) comes from walking into a group of innocents and blindsiding them, just to build their reputation. All because they were able to trade a few bits of paper for some steel. Take the guns away and their ability to weild this kind of power diminishes exponentially. Nothing can justify allowing putting that kind of power in the hands of people who can't handle it. It is just plain stupidity and the sooner more people finally see that, the better off everyone will be. In almost any conflict that I can think of, peace agreements always included some sort of disarmament process, for a good reason.

 

There is no easy solution to restraining these terrorists, but removing their weapons has to be part of the equation. I know some of you won't agree, but maybe you live long enough to see it happen in your lifetime (it is unlikely to happen in mine).

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Re: The Tradegy that occurred

[ Edited ]
Jul 21, 2012

MastrGT wrote:

Sorry, guys, but I don't agree. The punks using handguns or assault rifles as a symbol of power don't give two hoots about respect in our sense of the word. To them, it's a sense of terrorism and bullying - unadulterated and unbridled power. The ease of a coward being able to pull a trigger while weilding that kind of power is too much and it takes control of them. They only care about themselves, no-one else. Bystanders don't matter, nobody else does but them. To them, respect (from their peers) comes from walking into a group of innocents and blindsiding them, just to build their reputation. All because they were able to trade a few bits of paper for some steel. Take the guns away and their ability to weild this kind of power diminishes exponentially. Nothing can justify allowing putting that kind of power in the hands of people who can't handle it. It is just plain stupidity and the sooner more people finally see that, the better off everyone will be. In almost any conflict that I can think of, peace agreements always included some sort of disarmament process, for a good reason.

 

There is no easy solution to restraining these terrorists, but removing their weapons has to be part of the equation. I know some of you won't agree, but maybe you live long enough to see it happen in your lifetime (it is unlikely to happen in mine).


 
This is where education and a responsible public are required... You cannot have this manner of behavior tolerated nor allowed to continue as we do now. This whole frame of mind is not only tolerated, it's openly allowed to be encouraged through "song" lyrics, games and TV / movies glorifying the life style as something to be desired.
Taking away a weapon of choice does nothing to change the behavior. The weapon is not the problem, the behavior is. Responsible gun owners should not be punished by not being allowed to enjoy their hobby because 22 cent wants to pop a cap in somebody's buttockal region. Until society is willing to remove the behavior as acceptable, no matter what you do with any weapon will be irrelevant. The mentality will simply adapt and will just change the weapon of choice. Instead of guns, it'll be knives, swords, chainsaws, drano, bombs, cars, semis or whatever happens to kill the most people and make the biggest bang. The person will not change because you took his gun away. Short term there will be a temporary lessening of activity, but in reality you now take an already unstable personality group and give them something else to rally around and be ticked off at society for, which will only encourage and increase the number and the brutality of these types of attacks. It's simply a matter of time for the persons involved to make new plans.
I am not a gun owner. I don't need a gun. My brother, my father and now even my mother like to target shoot. My mom and dad didn't start shooting until their mid 60's. My brother has a collection of rifles that would astound many, and does restoration of some older models as a side job. It took him almost a year and a half to get his carry permit, and it was a pain to get it. He's not crazy, he isn't coming to a theater near you or any of that. Having as many guns as he does does not make him a gangster. It doesn't make him a criminal. He should not have to give up his hobby nor his side job cuz 22 cent can't deal with reality and chooses to live a life taken from rap and a video game.
I agree making gun possession harder and or tougher to maintain would be a good thing. Where I live the permit process for a handgun is the same for you and I as it is for a law enforcement officer to go through. You cannot have a gun on your person without going through the concealed carry permit process start to finish, which means background checks, character references and in some cases psych evaluations. You also have to demonstrate the ability to use the weapon safely and demonstrate the ability to carry the weapon responsibly. You then have to have your permit with you any time the gun is with you. It can take over a year to complete the process.
The only other legal way to have a handgun is to get a limited use permit, which requires many of the same screening items. With that the handgun must be kept in a lock box or in a gun safe, with ammunition stored in a separate lock box. You are allowed to transport the weapon in the trunk of your car in the lock box, with the ammo in it's lock box, but you can only remove it and fire it at a licensed gun club. You can't even buy a handgun without getting that permit first.
Compared to just having to show a driver's license or Sheriff's ID to get a rifle or shotgun at the local Box Store, it's a pain in the buttockal region to qualify for a pistol permit here.
Yet that doesn't stop anyone from obtaining a weapon if they want one badly enough.
As long as weapons are used anywhere, there will always be access to them.
And as long as society treats people like the ones you describe with kid gloves, the mentality will continue to fester and the cancer will grow within society at large... And the innocent will continue to suffer for it.
The death penalty was not instituted to "punish", it was a means of taking out the trash. In cases where there is no doubt of intent, no doubt as to guilt, there is simply no reason to pay to have that person stay at the local correctional hotel for their lives.
Contrary to popular opinion, you are what you think. You become what you think, what you do, what you see, what you hear and what you believe. Some people can handle fantasy and be OK, some people can't. 10 hours a day in a video game shooting to kill can become just another accepted reality if you do it long enough. Watching endless hours of brutality, death, destruction, mayhem and murder will effect you, whether to say enough it has to stop or to say that's so cool I wanna try that.
Until we as a society find a way to alter the cultural acceptance of this mind set, it will not change no matter what you do about guns. All you will accomplish is a small delay as those that will do these things anyway find new and interesting ways to kill people while depriving responsible adults of a hobby they enjoy.
It would be like taking GT5 away from you because you drink a beer. You can drive the game drunk, so you might go out and really try to drive drunk. Therefore, we have to stop selling driving games from being purchased so no one gets the idea in their head they can drive drunk. Or we have to institute some sort of driving sim permit procedure to make sure you're a stable, responsible citizen before we can allow you to purchase GT5.
It is the problem that needs to be fixed. Not the symptom. Not the tool.
The root problem is the culture, that's what needs to be dealt with.
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Re: The Tradegy that occurred

[ Edited ]
Jul 21, 2012

I believe that the glorification of guns by the media and in video games is the problem.  Most of the general public was not educated to respect guns or any form of weaponry and when they feel the only way to get their needs met is to use a weapon.  We are becoming numb to violence as a society and need to wake up and take a stand. We are an "intelligent" being....

 

 At some point the sides of the gun control arguement need to come together and agree that the owning of automatic military grade guns is not in the best interests of the general public. No one needs a fully automatic assault rifle to protect themselves or to go hunting.....

 

I believe that when the framers of the Constitution wrote what they did, it did not mean what it has become.  As we have "evolved",we tend to twist and turn things  to mean what they need to mean at the current time.

 

I was a victim of gun violence in college....a fraternity brother was killed for kicking someone out of a party for being underage. He later returned and killed the person who threw him out. 

 

Regardless , almost anything can be a weapon and if the person is in the wrong frame of mind, it can be used to kill another person.

 

 

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PlayStation MVP
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Re: The Tradegy that occurred

Jul 21, 2012
I feel that since the "intent of the framers" has come up, I feel that we should look at the intent of the amendment..,
Why was it really put into the amendments?

To make it possible, should it ever be neccessary, for the people to rise up against an oppressive governemnt. In short to prevent the government from being able to disarm the people. To keep the government a little afraid of those being opressed, should it ever come to that.

As others have seaid, the problem is not the tools, it's the wielders.

Don't let the wannabe opressors pull a fast one on ya by using something like this to try to get around this intent and safety measure in the constitution's ammendments or we may go the way of the only country on Earth which ever DID have its citizenry successfully disamed...

Hitler did a good job of that... (Ever wonder why the German prople never even TRIED to rise up against the Nazis?)
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Gaming Beast
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Re: The Tradegy that occurred

Jul 21, 2012

reju wrote:

I believe that the glorification of guns by the media and in video games is the problem.  Most of the general public was not educated to respect guns or any form of weaponry and when they feel the only way to get their needs met is to use a weapon. 

 

 At some point the sides of the gun control arguement need to come together and agree that the owning of automatic military grade guns is not in the best interests of the general public. No one needs a fully automatic assault rifle to protect themselves or to go hunting.....

 

I believe that when the framers of the Constitution wrote what they did, it did not mean what it has become.  As we have "evolved",we tend to twist and turn things  to mean what they need to mean at the current time.

 

I also don't think that we should be able to buy ammo online.....


While I would agree that media and games perpetuate guns and violence to an extreme, the blame cannot be laid squarely on that. I believe that ultimate responsibility lies with the people who choose to own guns. Common sense and knowing whats right and wrong is what seperates a lawful gun owner between that ****  that killed those people at the theater.

 

No one other than soldiers needs a fully auto weapon. I have shot them before and yeah it's a hoot but I don't want or need to own a weapon like that.

 

There are two people I know that I absolutely refuse to hunt or shoot with because they do not excercise proper common sense while handling guns. I have tried to get them to change their ways but I cannot.

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Re: The Tradegy that occurred

[ Edited ]
Jul 21, 2012

I may be wrong but wasn't Germany disarmed after WWI and only the military/police had weapons and Hitler had influence with them...most European countries have limited access to weapons......

 

Gandhi took over an entire country without guns.......

 

The words from the Bill of Rights.."A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"... vague but had a different meaning when it was written since they had just won their freedom.

 

 

 

 

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PlayStation MVP
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Re: The Tradegy that occurred

Jul 21, 2012

The German military was reduced to a maximum of 100,000 men, no tanks allowed, severe limits on Navy and Air Forces, etc.  That is what you are talking about.  The armistice said nothing about private citizens. 

 

THAT disarmament was all Hitler...

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