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Re: Toyota's car of the future doesn't run on gasoline

Jul 1, 2014

I'd love a hydrogen car.  

 

My only issues is that the amount of energy needed to create the liquid hydrogen ends up being more than if I just burned gasoline.   The production, delivery, and use of compressed hydrogen uses more energy than the process does when gas is used.

 

Yes, at your tailpipe, there are fewer emissions but in the grand scheme there are actually more emissions, sucks eh?

 

 

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Re: Toyota's car of the future doesn't run on gasoline

Jul 1, 2014

PLYMCO_PILGRIM wrote:

I'd love a hydrogen car.  

 

My only issues is that the amount of energy needed to create the liquid hydrogen ends up being more than if I just burned gasoline.   The production, delivery, and use of compressed hydrogen uses more energy than the process does when gas is used.

 

Yes, at your tailpipe, there are fewer emissions but in the grand scheme there are actually more emissions, sucks eh?

 


 

the covered true?..

 

the true that most people do not know..  kind of like the hybrid cars?

 

the best way to conserve resources and save money is to carpool with a co-worker  or work from home.

 

but those options are not available to everyone..

 

 

* i used carpool before in the past.... there's a reason why everyone like to drive alone.. it's more convenience

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Re: Toyota's car of the future doesn't run on gasoline

Jul 1, 2014

dulun18 wrote:

PLYMCO_PILGRIM wrote:

I'd love a hydrogen car.  

 

My only issues is that the amount of energy needed to create the liquid hydrogen ends up being more than if I just burned gasoline.   The production, delivery, and use of compressed hydrogen uses more energy than the process does when gas is used.

 

Yes, at your tailpipe, there are fewer emissions but in the grand scheme there are actually more emissions, sucks eh?

 


 

the covered true?..

 

the true that most people do not know..  kind of like the hybrid cars?

 

the best way to conserve resources and save money is to carpool with a co-worker  or work from home.

 

but those options are not available to everyone..

 

 

* i used carpool before in the past.... there's a reason why everyone like to drive alone.. it's more convenience


The trouble with hybrids and electric cars is that as the batteries age, the more they tend to pollute, and potentially moreso than the internal combustion engine.

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Re: Toyota's car of the future doesn't run on gasoline

Jul 2, 2014

dulun18 wrote:
:/ back then in 1998.. they told me that by 2010 we will not even use gasoline automobiles.. some either brag that we will not use tires anymore..  etc..

 


 

Stupid people say stupid things, while pretending to be experts.  And then when it turns out they're way wrong, they pretend not to be stupid.

 

I keep telling people this.  Hydrogen is NOT a fuel source.  It's an energy storage system.  It takes Y kW of electricity to artificially produce X amount of hydrogen, which must be transported, leaving you about 0.85X of hydrogen.  Using an internal combustion engine is maybe 40% efficient, so if you burn that 0.85X amount of hydrogen, you will get 0.35X amount of motion, or the equivalent of 0.35Y kW of electrical motion.  You're better off using a really good battery.  There is loss and leakage all along the way.  You could reduce the transport cost if you created the hydrogen directly at the fill-up station, but you're not going to improve much on the internal combustion engine.  It's been around for over 100 years.  All the major improvements have been made.  We've been getting diminishing returns on efficiency for a long time now.

 

Corn Ethanol is NOT a fuel source.  When you add up all the effort it takes to grow the corn (running tractors, supplying irrigation water, harvesting, etc.) it takes 1.2 gallons of real gasoline to make 1 gallon of corn ethanol, which isn't as good as gasoline.  It's a negative.  You're better off just burning the fuel that would have gone to the tractors, combines, etc.

 

Corn ethanol is about the only bad biofuel, and it's the one the government pushes, proving how smart the government is.  Brazilian sugar cane ethanol gives about 2 gallons of ethanol for one gallon of gas, but their farming practices are not the best.  All that rainforest stripping adds up over time.

 

Biodiesel is very effiicent and doesn't jack up the environment.  Diesel vehicles can use it with little to no engine modification.  If we can find a way to harvest switchgrass (a fast-growing weed) it would yield about a 12:1 ratio.  Very efficient.  And of course they're still trying to engineer bacteria that excrete diesel fuel.  If they can perfect that, we'll have it made.

 

Hydrogen is no good.  Propane is a fad.  corn ethanol is the equivalent of storing gasoline in a sieve.  The real car of the future will run on biodiesel or battery power.

 

Another thing:  We will NEVER run out of crude oil.  Never.  People who think will will run out one day don't understand the free market economy.  Eventually, the remaining oil will require too much effort to obtain and we'll stop.  If gasoline gost $900 a gallon, would you drive a car or ride a bicycle?  Most people would ride a bike.  And even if you could somehow afford $900 a gallon, you'd be about the only one doing it.  It's not worth spending billions of dollars to drill for oil just for one person to use.  You would personally have to use over a million gallons of gas before they could see revenue of a billion dollars (not profit, but revenue).

 

Somewhere along the line, it becomes too much like work to drill for oil.  The price of gas spikes up to the point where nobody wants to use it, and now everyone is driving a biodiesel car.  Whatever oil is left remains in the ground.  It's no longer profitable to drill for it.

 

This is not the same as running out of oil.  You might have a hard time finding gasoline, but the world will not run out of oil.  It's not economically possible.  If gas sells for too cheap, it's not profitable for them to spend all the effort to drill for oil, refine it, transport it, etc.  If gas sells for too high a price, people change their driving habits drastically.  We saw this in 2008 when gas went over $4.00 a gallon.  People stopped driving unless it was absolutely necessary.  For oil to be profitable, there is a "sweet spot" price window for crude oil.  Biofuel technology and next-gen elextric cars will distort the market and reduce the sweet spot.  Oil will quickly become yesterday's power source.

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Re: Toyota's car of the future doesn't run on gasoline

Jul 2, 2014

All very accurate and valid points Dr.Gadget.   I really don't have much to add, you basically expanded on what I was trying to say in the same way I read when I learned about this stuff on my own years ago.   

 

Keep up with the informative posts, I might not always respond but always look forward to reading them.

 

 

 

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Re: Toyota's car of the future doesn't run on gasoline

Jul 2, 2014

DrGadget wrote:

Spoiler
dulun18 wrote:
:/ back then in 1998.. they told me that by 2010 we will not even use gasoline automobiles.. some either brag that we will not use tires anymore..  etc..

 


 

Stupid people say stupid things, while pretending to be experts.  And then when it turns out they're way wrong, they pretend not to be stupid.

 

I keep telling people this.  Hydrogen is NOT a fuel source.  It's an energy storage system.  It takes Y kW of electricity to artificially produce X amount of hydrogen, which must be transported, leaving you about 0.85X of hydrogen.  Using an internal combustion engine is maybe 40% efficient, so if you burn that 0.85X amount of hydrogen, you will get 0.35X amount of motion, or the equivalent of 0.35Y kW of electrical motion.  You're better off using a really good battery.  There is loss and leakage all along the way.  You could reduce the transport cost if you created the hydrogen directly at the fill-up station, but you're not going to improve much on the internal combustion engine.  It's been around for over 100 years.  All the major improvements have been made.  We've been getting diminishing returns on efficiency for a long time now.

 

Corn Ethanol is NOT a fuel source.  When you add up all the effort it takes to grow the corn (running tractors, supplying irrigation water, harvesting, etc.) it takes 1.2 gallons of real gasoline to make 1 gallon of corn ethanol, which isn't as good as gasoline.  It's a negative.  You're better off just burning the fuel that would have gone to the tractors, combines, etc.

 

Corn ethanol is about the only bad biofuel, and it's the one the government pushes, proving how smart the government is.  Brazilian sugar cane ethanol gives about 2 gallons of ethanol for one gallon of gas, but their farming practices are not the best.  All that rainforest stripping adds up over time.

 

Biodiesel is very effiicent and doesn't jack up the environment.  Diesel vehicles can use it with little to no engine modification.  If we can find a way to harvest switchgrass (a fast-growing weed) it would yield about a 12:1 ratio.  Very efficient.  And of course they're still trying to engineer bacteria that excrete diesel fuel.  If they can perfect that, we'll have it made.

 

Hydrogen is no good.  Propane is a fad.  corn ethanol is the equivalent of storing gasoline in a sieve.  The real car of the future will run on biodiesel or battery power.

 

Another thing:  We will NEVER run out of crude oil.  Never.  People who think will will run out one day don't understand the free market economy.  Eventually, the remaining oil will require too much effort to obtain and we'll stop.  If gasoline gost $900 a gallon, would you drive a car or ride a bicycle?  Most people would ride a bike.  And even if you could somehow afford $900 a gallon, you'd be about the only one doing it.  It's not worth spending billions of dollars to drill for oil just for one person to use.  You would personally have to use over a million gallons of gas before they could see revenue of a billion dollars (not profit, but revenue).

 

Somewhere along the line, it becomes too much like work to drill for oil.  The price of gas spikes up to the point where nobody wants to use it, and now everyone is driving a biodiesel car.  Whatever oil is left remains in the ground.  It's no longer profitable to drill for it.

 

This is not the same as running out of oil.  You might have a hard time finding gasoline, but the world will not run out of oil.  It's not economically possible.  If gas sells for too cheap, it's not profitable for them to spend all the effort to drill for oil, refine it, transport it, etc.  If gas sells for too high a price, people change their driving habits drastically.  We saw this in 2008 when gas went over $4.00 a gallon.  People stopped driving unless it was absolutely necessary.  For oil to be profitable, there is a "sweet spot" price window for crude oil.  Biofuel technology and next-gen elextric cars will distort the market and reduce the sweet spot.  Oil will quickly become yesterday's power source.

 

 


 

so it's like an electric car?

 

 

personally i don't believe in any claim as UNLIMITED.. there's no such thing as UNLIMITED or LIFETIME (warranty or plans)..

 

i'm sure there will be plenty of gasoline even after i'm already dead.. but how long will it be for?.

 

when resources are depleted.. people will tear each other a part over a piece of bread..

 

even when they are full after the thanksgiving dinner.. they still trample on someone as they tried to get in a store to get their hands on that sale item  Smiley Indifferent

 

 

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