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Sackboy
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Re: Balance suggestions and thoughts thread

Jun 6, 2013


Final thing of everything: Cole's triple square combo shouldn't be the same as evil cole as they have enough in common already. I think they should completely remove the random factor of drake cole and evil coles attacks and if they are only going to change what the triple square combo does then they should make it different but not the same as E cole

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Fender Bender
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Re: Balance suggestions and thoughts thread

Jul 13, 2013

bump, read first post

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Wastelander
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Re: Balance suggestions and thoughts thread

Jul 13, 2013
If all this applied and Radec was left untouched, would that really be "fair?"
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Fender Bender
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Re: Balance suggestions and thoughts thread

Jul 13, 2013

Myztyrio wrote:
If all this applied and Radec was left untouched, would that really be "fair?"

radec is kinda in the middle no? i think he's in a good position right now and would be in a better one after my suggestted changes were applied. But feel free to add your own suggestions for radec

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Treasure Hunter
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Re: Balance suggestions and thoughts thread

[ Edited ]
Aug 2, 2013

BlueDiamond93 wrote:

To all: Just know that these buffs were carefully/cautiously thought of and developed for over a few months. These changes will not only make Jak more viable and balanced, but true to his franchise without being OP (the right way)Don't be overwhelmed by the multiple additions. If Jak was designed correctly (as an acrobatic/mobile, strong, ranged and powerful character like others) then he wouldn't need all these changes and additions, which I basically refer to as a re-design in his character moveset. Also there will be some adjustments/additions involved as well so don't categorize adjustments/additions as major buffs. Example of adjustments -. Level 2 works on the water surface, Gyro Burster bouncing off wall, Peace Maker having charge mode, etc. Furthermore, other characters have been developed greatly from their games such as Ratchet, Kratos, Sly and Raiden, so there should be no reason why Jak was toned down the most in all fields (even if he hadn't had a true game since 2004), which put him in the low tier section, especially with his reputation outside all-stars. I have excessively played his original games to make valid, rational and accurate points, buffs and changes. No offense, but if you haven't played his original games recently then your opinions will be pretty misleading, inaccurate, and ignorant depending on what it is. If your memory is well enough to remember how Jak guns, etc, performed (full aspects wise) then your opinion on his guns, etc, will be fine, again depending on what it is. Same applies to if you haven't played as Jak since launch, because you're unaware of his changes and how he was before, and if you haven't used him in high level play. No offense to anyone.

 

 

Jak buffs:

 

Supers

 

 

Level 1-

Blue eco's consistency below Jak's feet adjusted. (Basically from my observation the reason why it's easy to roll through it Jak's Level 1, is because the blue eco is inconsistent below Jak's feet with it's already smaller hitbox. In addition, because of the re-designed/altered eco vent in all-stars, blue eco does not start from the immediate flat-bottom-center of the vent, because it's not flat in all-stars, but it was in Jak's game. That pretty much means Jak's level 1 was already nerfed from the start of it's re-design by virtue). Buff: So blue eco becomes more consistent throughout the exact end of the super for below Jak's feet and has it's hitbox below Jak's feet buffed (which counts as a width buff) because Jak himself and blue eco are suppose to be the super kill. As Jak reaches the peak of his jump duration and is coming down is when it loses it's consistency, because it will be the end of the super's duration. Just to clarify, I'm not saying the eco vent should be a hitbox, just that the blue eco (below Jak's feet) is actually suppose to be more consistent. 

 

**Updated & Summarized buffs to Level 1-



- Make the blue eco coming out of the vent more involved with the super (like Dark Jak & and his Dark Bomb and since all of Jak's power comes from that vent) meaning increase the duration of blue eco to actually be more accurate to the end of the super meaning blue eco's vertical line of energy/frames stays out and increase the hitbox slightly width wise below Jak's feet to actually match a more related power of origin hitbox. These changes may sound like they lead or mean the same-thing but they don't.

 

- (Seeing as how this super from Jak's game has him doing what he does in all-stars except having the effect to run around with the absorbed blue eco as he does in his games), Jak's body should be actively charged with blue eco until he actually lands on the ground. So you're basically making the super more canon and having Jak holding his charged blue eco from the air until he touches the ground acting as an anti air that travels to the ground then ends somewhat similar to Emmett's level 2 except of course Jak's level 1 ends immediately. And for an *FYI* the vent will be gone already, so it's not like the opponent would have to worry about the vent emitting blue eco and Jak with his charged/absorbed blue eco. Also in a **bleep** good way this compensates for Jak's level 1 having a terrible duration, because he can't stay in the air holding the blue eco as if he was levitating. Or have it to where right before he touches the ground then the blue eco disappears from his body.

 

- Return AP cost to 150 (currently 125). The return to his cost "also" compensates for his AP buffs I will suggest and not just his "proper level 1" buffs.

 

 

Level 2-

(Adjustment) - Dark Bomb now works on the water (like other level 2's). Before, Jak's Level 2 will be canceled when came into contact with water. Raidens initial level 2 stun no longer stops Dark Jak when in the air (so Raiden would obviously have to jump high enough to dodge). (Buff) - Range of Dark bomb also slightly increased and now acts as a 360 hitbox all around not just 50% behind him. And the dark bomb's effect is now altered to have a (canon) lasting or slowed effect (like Emmett's level 2 and Jak's pre release Lv2) after being used so roll dodging through it up close isn't possible or just extremely hard (not the same as rolliing away from it) and Jak isn't so easy to kill right after using it. The 360 hitbox however, will not apply to Jak's WC even if it was 360 in his games and Jak's cost is now 350 (previously 325).

 

Level 3-

Cost now reduced to 725 (previously 750) and the move Flash Freeze range has been slightly increased (common sense why it does if you played Jak 3 then seeing how it compares when used in all-stars). (The cost buff is not a problem because not only is Jak's overall AP gain still not that great even after the buffs, but also Jak's super has some faults to it (like the sluggish turn around feel and short duration) that adjusting the AP gain will make up for and his other supers cost increased. Also Sly's Level 3 and Cole's cost 675 and they have better AP gain then Jak so when the math is done correctly this is not irrational or bias or unbalanced. And yes kill potential capacity was considered. Since nothing like duration is being increased, Jak is not getting any buffs that make his super easier to kill ppl, just cheaper so he can get to level 3 faster.

 

 

Gun (Mods):

Peace Maker/Up triangle-

Peace Maker ap value increased to 10, (previously 5). Charge mode, running mode and homing mode added. Jak can only start moving with the Peace maker after it's charged, not from the beginning (so basically like Ratchet's N2). Charge mode does not grant additional AP, but it does increase the hitbox to both the separate hitboxes. And oddly running mode only debuts because of running mode and all are canon to Jak's original PM. Homing mode will allow the Peace maker to home in on nearby targets (similar to Jak's Needle Lazer and Cole's Ice Rocket).  Also this will be Jak's only & first gun he is able to move with. (He wasn't given one gun that he was able to move with, which he deserved. Now he does). Since Isaac can move with the Plasma Cutter, Drake with the Ak-47 and Ratchet with N2 it's only fair for Jak (of all people) to have the same ability with one gun.  Equipping that ability to his side triangle I find is highly unnecessary because of the buffs it will be getting below. Air works the same.

 

Peace Maker/Option B

AP value increased to 10 (previously 5). Charge and homing mode added. Charge mode does not grant additional AP, but it does increase both hitboxes. Also when the gun is being charged Jak has the ability to jump with the charged orb and release it in air or when he comes back down to ground, but cannot walk or run with it. So basically this acts as an opposite fully charged Wave Concussor from the air. He can change directions in air and hold fire, but not on ground like the WC. Homing similar to tracking will allow the purple orb of dark eco to home in on nearby opponents.

 

 

Mass Inverter/Up circle-

Range significantly increased. Pick's up blocking opponents (similar to Sackboy's bounce pad). Start up time increased to a point where it's inbetween post release and pre patch start up (so this is a nerf). Same goes for recovery (except this counts as a buff). Special ability still disabled where enemies would step into the area after the gun has been used and be lifted. (The special effect being disabled is why the gun receives a range and duration buff).  AP value left untouched. 5 AP is highly reasonable (because the gun did no actual damage in his series, so 5 AP makes sense in the all-stars world) especially with these proper mechanics. Air same.

 

Mass Inverter/Option B-

Duration slightly increased (1+ sec). Special ability enabled where enemies would step into the area after the gun has been used and be effected/lifted in air. Old start up restored. Recovery slightly decreased. This gun no longer grants you any AP. Air same.............. I'd just go with plan A.

 

 

 

Arc Wielder/Neutral triangle-

Pre-patch reaction restored. (Personally the knockback reaction now isn't that bad, still pretty bad though, but I believe it's best potential relies through it's old reaction. (See why further). Plus it was more canon related that way. Recovery is reduced to 12 frames (previously 18 and before that was 8). With it's previous reaction restored, it has to have reduced recovery because the reaction does not eject the opponent back after the last hit from the gun. The duration reset from pre-patch when Jak landed on the ground while using the AW from the air is also restored. 1 whole inch (screen-wise/perspective) is added in range. In other words on Metro from the corner where Jak is STANDING the electrical current would be long as the platform. When canceled while using, no recovery will be active after. However, if the gun is used till the end of the total duration, which would and is the only way to grant you the full 20 AP.. again only if you use it to the end, then recovery will take place after. Air version is no different, besides the reset.

 

Arc Wielder/Option B (Best recommended)-

Have it to where it has it's (canon) pre patch properties with the post patch knockback effect. Meaning everytime the gun is used enemies will be caught in the inescapable electric current (like pre patch) and will be pushed back at the end of the move (like post patch). Recovery reduced to 12 frames. 1 whole inch screen wise is added in length and AP gain remains at 20. 

 

 

Needle Lazer/Side Circle-

Pre-patch tracking restored. Shots travel 1 meter less. Start up time reduced slightly. (Speed bullets travel remains). Recovery remains to compensate for it's other buffs. Air version is no different. 

 

**Note that this is still nothing compared to how it was pre-release. Pre-release had more rangebetter tracking, faster speed and less recovery. With that in mind this buff will not make it OP.

 

 

 

Blaster/Side triangle-

2 meters restored, but continious fire removed.  Normal quick start up like everyone elses main-stream gun or move, so this gun can be up to par with those guns/moves, but faster shots travel removed (which is very fair because it gained a faster start up). AP increased from 6 to 10 per shot totaling 30 AP (previously 18). (No hardknock down is restored. Shouldn't be a problem because this is basically Isaac's plasma cutter (his sig and reliable move) slightly more range, but no walk and gun ability, which right there is that compensation, and Isaac fires 4 shots in total (40 AP for him). And this move is 1/3 Jak's sig moves so...

 

 

Beam Reflexor/Down triangle-

Pre-release range restored. Each bullet (3) now has the ability to bounce off a character 1 time only (previously pre-prelease, multiple times). I don't see why SB couldn't just do this. So simple and should have been altered like this if ti was OP). When the shot bounces off the opponent, it's possible to hit another nearby opponent, but it will not... will not bounce off that person. Instead, it will stop at that next opponent. The next 2 bullets will come out if the user is holding down or pressing down triangle (like it currently does), not neutral triangle. This allows for other moves to be used fluidly and less conflicting when certain move commands are pressed.

 

Beam Reflexor/Option B-

Pre-release range restored1 bullet only can now be shot from this gun. This 1 bullet bounces between 1 and/or all opponents. If used against someone pressed up against a wall or corner the shot can go through them hit the wall and come back counting as 2 hits depending on nearby platforms or ledges. That 2nd enemy getting hit grants an addiditonal 5 AP totaling 10. In addition every bullet that hits another opponent grants Jak with 2+ AP (just a clarification here. So if the bullet was to hit 2 people without a wall Jak would gain 7 AP instead of 5).

 

 

Gyro Burster/Neutral Circle-

Now bounces off walls and has added defense to it. ANY attack no longer destroys the drone. Still mode is also added. This effect derives from Jak 3 just like the bouncing off walls ability. While the drone is active, if circle is pressed again the drone will be stay in place (while still shooting) until the end of the move duration. *Once you choose to keep it in place you cannot change it again to be active.

 

 

 

Wave Concussor/Down circle-

Fully charged grants Jak with an additional 10 AP (totaling 30) when/if landed (like other charged, not hold, attacks). Restored ability to hit behind Jak when uncharged (for many reasons). With this move having received a huge hitbox nerf now this gun can have other aspects to it that wouldn't make it OP such as the ones listed.

 

 

Melee's:

 

**Note- Jak melee's AND agile speed (not running speed) were also overly toned down combo and speed wise from his series (unlike Sly, Raiden, Kratos, etc). Basically he feels overly sluggish, something he felt nothing like in his games and that does not match his character type which is very bad. You will only know this if you played his games then came onto all-stars immediately and compared both Jak's. Of course we all know moves and etc are suppose to be toned down from every characters game series, but the thing is, with Jak, things were overly toned down with little to no reward. None of Jak's already limited melee's should have been nerfed and instead should have been slightly buffed (like Sly) or more up to par with his games (like Ratchet) which it's neither of now.

 

 

Dashing Punch/Side square-

Now has super armor and an altered hitbox to properly have priority over certain attacks. Uppercut's (which does not have super armor) can now follow up after a freely used dashing punch. (This is way it should have been and was in his games and is simply part of his mobility game). However, if an opponent blocks the punch Jak will not be allowed to uppercut. (Slight super armor should not be a problem at all. He gets 5 AP off the punch and can only perform an uppercut after that, which nets him 25 AP total, so again not even close to a big deal and looking at the way the move is perform super armor seems pretty relevant).

 

 

Spinkick/Neutral square-

Faster start up on ground, so it's not easily punishable and easy to dodge on block especially. Also originial hurt/hitbox restored. This will give it the priority that this move needs (back) very bad. This is 2/3 Jak's sig moves so I dont know why a move like this was nerfed when it was a sig/most iconic move, wasn't OP and moves such as Sly's S2 wasn't touched. This move deserves and should have priority period.

 

Super Dive Attack/Down square-

(Air only) Every primary dive attack only, has a slightly faster attack animation (so the move isn't stupid easy to punish anymore on block or in general and is more canon to his un-sluggish animation in his games). Also the attack can only keep being used if down square is pressed repeatedly not neutral square. (Way it should have been overall and how it was in his games). 

 

 

 

Grab:

(Many many people are not aware of this, but Jak has the slowest grab start-up & one of the slowest recovery/abilty to grab again in the game (excluding Zeus and characters with "special" type of grabs such as Kat and Ratchet). This was already tested multiple times. Even Sir Dan and Big Daddie's are faster in 1 or both fields).

 

Seeing as how Radec and Emmett who are highly similar to Jak in regards to carrying guns and even carrying a gun during their grab animations, Jak should have their grab aspects in terms of start up and recovery. Buff: Reduce Jak's grab start up in half and since Jak has a partner on his shoulder who partakes in the grab, it would makes sense for Jak to have that advantage (as other characters do in their own unique ways) therefore Daxter's arm being part of the grabbing hitbox. By reducing the start up and not just making it exactly as fast as others, Daxter was given the potential to be part of the grab.

 

Up grab now causes a heavy tossed up reaction, similar to Isaac's and Kat's up grab, so that Jak now has the potential to follow up with a (short) combo (which will not lead into an AP burst with his moveset). This is something we should all know by now Jak needs with his mediocre moveset/gameplay and crappy super set. And even if the supers do undergo any buff, this is something he should still have. Futhermore this up grab change actually goes with Jak's character type - an acrobatic, strong and flexible character. This is something by nature of his own traits he would be able to do or fits him perfectly.

 


 

Interestingly, more & drastic edits have been made to this page changes only. The previous page suggestions are still outdated. Not every single buff is explained why they are buffed in great detail, but there is MULTIPLE reasons for them all. This is a matter of trust. I can't even begin to explain why he needs all these buffs. Also im still looking into the Mass Inverter buffs. This gun has a lot of promise and potential that I have not fully worked out yet.

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Only time will tell.
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I Only Post Everything
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Re: My faith restored, Balance suggestions

Jul 23, 2013

LOL holy crap if these changes go live then R.I.P Sly.

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Fender Bender
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Re: My faith restored, Balance suggestions

Aug 3, 2013
Bump again, SSM. Has confirmed that they are working on a patch
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First Son
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Re: My faith restored, Balance suggestions

Aug 4, 2013
Jak used to be my main until I realized he was broken and I dropped him, if this next patch makes him what he needs to be, I'm definitely resurrecting him from the bad list of characters
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Sackboy
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Re: My faith restored, Balance suggestions

[ Edited ]
Aug 28, 2013

Really interesting Smiley Happy I would love to see jak running about with a charged up gun pointing upwards.

If I could just ask: Have you noticed that the way you described jak's forward triangle would make it very similar to the way that radec's neutral triangle is now? Do you think that radec's version should be changed (possibly to 5 bullets) to prevent them from being too similar?

EDIT: this is in reply to blue's latest jak changes list.

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Treasure Hunter
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Re: My faith restored, Balance suggestions

Aug 28, 2013

This buff list is very outdated... so

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Only time will tell.
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