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Fender Bender
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Re: PS3 - Virtually Lag Free?

Jun 10, 2005

,
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,snowcrash wrote:

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,Batista20 wrote:
I can understant how the theory would seem to remedy lag, but I cant see it making a major difference.

You can either receive/send lots of small packets to many players; or

You can send/recieve large packets from fewer people.

If you can only send a certain ammount of data at a time, how does the new method reduce the load?


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it streams packets using socket to fewer people than all the people that are online.  for example, there are four people(to make it simple), i need to send data to all four people. but instead i send a data to person B, and person B will send same data to person C and D.  and when i receive data from more than one person, i'll accept the data from person who receive the data first.  this was possible with no relay lag because of cell grid functions.
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Correct, it basically reduces the amount of redundant information being sent over the game "network".  It's a refinement of a peer to peer network basically.,
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Treasure Hunter
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Re: PS3 - Virtually Lag Free?

Jun 10, 2005

,
,
,Steppy76 wrote:

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,
,snowcrash wrote:
,
 

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if you are talking about true real-time, of course there is no true lag free, like there is no true "digital" in digital sound. 
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the lag i'm talking about is lag that happenes in gaming when there are lot of ppl on online. 
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and "saved the bandwidth" means no lag right?   

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That is NOT lag, that is the game engine rendering more than it is capable of...call it frame dropping or whatever.  The same thing will happen if you took the game offline and had the same number of "monsters" on screen at once.  Saving bandwidth will allow more players to connect before the bandwidth required is "saturated"...nothing more, nothing less.  LAG itself is inherent to an internet connection and will be for quite some time and there is nothing that can really be done about it.   
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i guess you have never experienced where you are all by yourself and notices lag online.  I know what are you talking about.. yes there is this "LAG" due to rendering too many data. I'm not talking about that. 
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Sackboy
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Re: PS3 - Virtually Lag Free?

Jun 10, 2005
Say you have to send a packet to a bunch of people, the more people you have the longer it will take you to send it. So instead of sending one packet to every player in the game, you now only have to send one packet to 6 people. Those 6 people will then send the same packet to six other people for you. And this repeats until everyone in the game has recieved your packet. This way you send the data in multiples of 6.
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I'll see if I can explain it with simple numbers. The numbers will be exaggerated and made up because it will be simple.
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Lets say it takes you 1 second to send a packet to 1 person. To get the packet sent to 100 players there will be a delay of 100 seconds.
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Now with the PS3 it will take 1 second for the packet to be sent to 1 person, but this time you only have to send it to 6 people.
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So, you send 1 packet to 6 people that's a total of 6 seconds so far. Now, each of those people will recieve that packet at the same time and start sending it to 6 more people each at 1 second per person. If they all send the packet at the same time it will only take a total of 6 seconds to send the same packet to 36 more people. 6 people sending 1 packet to 6 people in 6 seconds.
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That's 12 seconds and a total of 42 people have already recieved your packet. To keep this going, the 36 people that just recieved your packet will then send the same packet to 6 more people each taking a total time of 6 seconds to send. 216 people will have recieved your packet after the 36 people send it in 6 more seconds.
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So the final number of seconds it took for the packet being sent would be 18, and the number of people who have your packet now is 258.
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Treasure Hunter
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Re: PS3 - Virtually Lag Free?

Jun 10, 2005

,
,
,Arsenal_Max wrote:
,
Say you have to send a packet to a bunch of people, the more people you have the longer it will take you to send it. So instead of sending one packet to every player in the game, you now only have to send one packet to 6 people. Those 6 people will then send the same packet to six other people for you. And this repeats until everyone in the game has recieved your packet. This way you send the data in multiples of 6.
,
 
,
I'll see if I can explain it with simple numbers. The numbers will be exaggerated and made up because it will be simple.
,
 
,
Lets say it takes you 1 second to send a packet to 1 person. To get the packet sent to 100 players there will be a delay of 100 seconds.
,
 
,
Now with the PS3 it will take 1 second for the packet to be sent to 1 person, but this time you only have to send it to 6 people.
,
 
,
So, you send 1 packet to 6 people that's a total of 6 seconds so far. Now, each of those people will recieve that packet at the same time and start sending it to 6 more people each at 1 second per person. If they all send the packet at the same time it will only take a total of 6 seconds to send the same packet to 36 more people. 6 people sending 1 packet to 6 people in 6 seconds.
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That's 12 seconds and a total of 42 people have already recieved your packet. To keep this going, the 36 people that just recieved your packet will then send the same packet to 6 more people each taking a total time of 6 seconds to send. 216 people will have recieved your packet after the 36 people send it in 6 more seconds.
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So the final number of seconds it took for the packet being sent would be 18, and the number of people who have your packet now is 258.

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not really, because you need to think of as internet.  and it doesn't take one second to send data packet to other peer.  we are talking about miliseconds... with using streaming socket with cell grid.. it'll take less.
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Sackboy
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Re: PS3 - Virtually Lag Free?

Jun 10, 2005
,

I know, thats why I said the numbers will be exaggerated and made up.

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Its just easier to understand how much faster it actually is to send data that way other the traditional way.

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The speed will also rely a lot on other peoples connections. Some will send slower and some will send faster. But lag won't be as noticable because only a select few people at a time will be noticing lag from one person at any given time.

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Ghost of Sparta
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Re: PS3 - Virtually Lag Free?

Jun 10, 2005


The Big Hurt wrote:
Talk about confusing. Why does it have to be this complicated just to have 32 players online?

Its,not complicated at all Even if you do consider what he said,comlicated it wont matter to you, cause whenver you play a 32 player,game you dont have to do anything, the cell will do it by itself.
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Fender Bender
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Re: PS3 - Virtually Lag Free?

Jun 10, 2005

,
,
,snowcrash wrote:

,
,
,Steppy76 wrote:

,
,
,snowcrash wrote:
,
 

,
if you are talking about true real-time, of course there is no true lag free, like there is no true "digital" in digital sound. 
,
the lag i'm talking about is lag that happenes in gaming when there are lot of ppl on online. 
,
and "saved the bandwidth" means no lag right?   

,
,
That is NOT lag, that is the game engine rendering more than it is capable of...call it frame dropping or whatever.  The same thing will happen if you took the game offline and had the same number of "monsters" on screen at once.  Saving bandwidth will allow more players to connect before the bandwidth required is "saturated"...nothing more, nothing less.  LAG itself is inherent to an internet connection and will be for quite some time and there is nothing that can really be done about it.   
,

,
,

,
i guess you have never experienced where you are all by yourself and notices lag online.  I know what are you talking about.. yes there is this "LAG" due to rendering too many data. I'm not talking about that. 

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,

Yes I have, that is the lag inherent to an internet connection, that was my whole point and the fact that it happens when you are all by yourself proves my point.  No matter how much less information you have to send across that network there is still a delay in from when you "do something" to when it is received by the other machines and you receive the acknowledgement back.  Even on a home network there is lag(although at these speeds it's barely perceivable) and these connections are far faster than any internet connection we have.  Unless your ping is 0, you will have lag.,
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Treasure Hunter
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Re: PS3 - Virtually Lag Free?

Jun 10, 2005

,
,
,Steppy76 wrote:

,
 

Yes I have, that is the lag inherent to an internet connection, that was my whole point and the fact that it happens when you are all by yourself proves my point.  No matter how much less information you have to send across that network there is still a delay in from when you "do something" to when it is received by the other machines and you receive the acknowledgement back.  Even on a home network there is lag(although at these speeds it's barely perceivable) and these connections are far faster than any internet connection we have.  Unless your ping is 0, you will have lag. ,

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,

This is due to your network connection issue(something that sony can't fix), but not because due to number of ppl on online.  I see your point.  It's not full proof lag free because nature of local connection issue.  But this technology will help bring more people online without worring about lag.
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Treasure Hunter
Registered: 11/10/2002
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Re: PS3 - Virtually Lag Free?

Jun 10, 2005

,
,
,snowcrash wrote:

,
,
,Llama Herder wrote:

,
,
,snowcrash wrote:
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Another inside scoop from my friend, a friend who also told me about dual video outputs.
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He received updated programming libraries from Sony several days ago and one of the libraries has "cell grid online" functions.  And this functions can do virtually unlimited number of players online with no lag.  With this function, the game doesn't have to be connected to every online player.  A single PS3 will connect upto 6 players in x amount of online players, and other 6 players will do the same thing, connecting upto other 6 players in cell grid mode.   For example, I send some data to 6 people, and 6 people who received the data will also send the data to 6 people, which is total of 32 people(6 x 6) and on and on.  This was possible with no relay lag because of cell grid technology,  cell puts into grid mode immediately and opens socket for real-time streaming for online game. It doesn't matter how many people are on online, you are only connecting upto 6 players.  He also explained to me what if people disconnects from internet, he says there is a library function that cell automatically looks for other cells(other online player) and opens socket.

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So it's like the bittorrent network? ,

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i don't think so, doesn't bittorrent gets bits of info from many people?
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Well, it's similar to the pic you posted.  Here is a pic of the network:

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,
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Fender Bender
Registered: 04/11/2004
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Re: PS3 - Virtually Lag Free?

Jun 10, 2005

,
,
,snowcrash wrote:
,

,
,
,Steppy76 wrote:

,
 

Yes I have, that is the lag inherent to an internet connection, that was my whole point and the fact that it happens when you are all by yourself proves my point.  No matter how much less information you have to send across that network there is still a delay in from when you "do something" to when it is received by the other machines and you receive the acknowledgement back.  Even on a home network there is lag(although at these speeds it's barely perceivable) and these connections are far faster than any internet connection we have.  Unless your ping is 0, you will have lag. ,

,
,

This is due to your network connection issue(something that sony can't fix), but not because due to number of ppl on online.  I see your point.  It's not full proof lag free because nature of local connection issue.  But this technology will help bring more people online without worring about lag.

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A good way to put it would be that more people can be online BEFORE they have to worry about LAG above and beyond the normal lag associated with an internet connection.  Games that already are limited to strictly connection based lag won't have less lag with the new methods than before.  This should be quite helpful for games like socom 4, and battlefield:whatever theme they choose for the PS3...but not with sports games and the like.  The fewer people the game uses, the less benefit this will have.,
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