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VP of Gaming
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Re: ps4 backwards compatibility

Apr 23, 2013

Phillyblunz wrote:

Jdurg wrote:

To be honest, one of the biggest selling points of the PS2 when it came out was that it was a DVD Player and could play DVD movies.  At the time, the DVD was a new "item" for the general public, and was a HUGE step up from the VHS days for watching movies.  With the PS2 being able to play movies, in addition to playing videogames, it became a VERY attractive item for people. 

It's ability to play PS1 games was, as you've stated, partly due to the small lineup of games available for the system at the time.  Also, the PS1 is a VERY simple system hardware wise.  Hell, when the PS1 was a relatively new console there were already 100% compatible emulation programs out there allowing people to play PS1 discs on their PCs.  (Do a search for BLEEM! and how Sony hated it for more details). 

 

With the PS3, Blu-Ray was the new "thing" out there.  Sony wanted people to go and pick up a PS3 to play games and watch Blu-Ray movies.  Something a lot of people did.  Again, the games lineup at the start wasn't that spectacular, so to coerce people into buying the console for Blu-Ray viewing, Sony included PS2 backwards compatibility to further coerce the consumer into getting their product. 

 

For the PS4, there isn't some new disc technology out there, so Sony's directors obviously feel that there's no need to go and jack up the production cost, and final end cost, of the PS4 in order to get people into it.  They are simply relying on the games and the hopefully abundant set of titles for it at launch. 

 

I would LOVE IT if the PS4 could natively play all of my PS3 titles, but once they announced that the new console would not be using a Cell processor I knew that B/C would not be possible.  I have moved on.  Sadly, many others who won't take the time to actually understand WHY it's not B/C haven't.


 

 

Its a risk vs reward situation.

 

If they spend money getting PS3 games working on PS4 they risk not recouping that money.

 

But it seems to me, if you took the top 50 selling PS3 games and made them playable on PS4, they would continue to sell.

 

Same for PS2 games.

 

Then the money you make off the first 50 you use to make the next 10 or 20, and see how they sell.

 

(That is always the inherent flaw in the entire backward compatibility argument. This idea of "they would make money off of old games". Just how much money would they make? Not a whole lot because a) you've already purchased these games and you can't sell them for full price, and don't give me this "I would pay $60 for game X", because as soon as a reissue was priced at $60, you'd scream "THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!", ... and B) if you're playing ten year old games, you're not buying NEW games. That's why backwards compatibility was dropped in the first place, to spur PS3 game sales. It's a basic rule of business; a higher profit margin on a more expensive product equals more profit. You can't make money selling a reissue for $10, and with a $3 profit margin. If they followed that business model, the entire game industry would be bankrupt inside of six months).

 

Gotta spend money to make money, and some of these are guaranteed sellers IMO.

 

I get that Sony is in financial ruin and are not keen to take many risks these days, but the Sony of old was all about that, I think many of us expect that old Sony is still lurking behind the curtains ready to make take the next big leap for the good of all like they have soooo many times in the past.

 

(Sony does do other things. I know your main association is with video games, however their instersts span from book publising to film. They had a little movie that did pretty well for them last year, maybe you've heard of it?

 

The most successful Bond movie in HISTORY, taking in nearly a BILLION dollars, and that's in box office alone. I know "gamers" think of movies as passe', however the 007 films make an enormous amount of money world wide)

 

But your post makes me consider all the advanatges other Sony system have had at launch, and the lack of any of this for PS4 launch.  Unless you consider the share facebook button next level tech, I'm not a teen so have little use for it.

 

So they are not selling consoles as less expensive Bluray players, or DVD players, and apparnetly the PS4 will not even play CD"s!!!

(Has this even been confirmed, or is this a "gamer logic" illusory of truth that has been repeated, and now has become "fact"? It seems a bit of a stretch that if there's a disc drive in the PS4, that it wouldn't play CD's, and why would most "gamers" care? Your generation downloads music in file formats, CD's are old tech to most of the MTV **bleep** generation)

 

All it does to set it apart from anything else is play PS3 exclusive games, and it makes me worry immensely about its future.

 

(So after years of saying how Sony needed to be more like other companies, be more developer friendly, and now it's a problem? Technology is going to come in inceremental improvements this generaion. The real test is how well people use it, all the horsepower in the world does you no good if nobody is in the driver seat.)

 

You think I want to not have the next Playstation in my house?  I do, as long as it remains the top teir gaming system brand I have known since PS1.  Only except the best has always been my gaming motto amd has always meant Playstation to date.

 

 


 

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Gaming Beast
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Re: ps4 backwards compatibility

Apr 23, 2013

You also have to remember with ps1 and ps2 gaming at that degree was amazing to all. New to the market with extras like cd dvd and blueray with ps3. All of that is old news now. So for them to take things away from there system when all other eletronics are increasing there abilities by leaps and bounds every year is not a wise choice in my opinion. I was looking for a phone the other day and looked at a sony phone. I played Crash on it. How long have people been asking for that on thr vita? I know people that play ps1, ps2 games on there tablet for next to nothing. And sony is taking that away from there gaming system. What will happen in a couple of years when they play full ps3 type games also. Do not say it will not happen because they already play short versions of them. And as said sony is taking away from there system. And buy the way when they took away BC from ps3 it was a huge deal to a lot of people. A lot jumped ship then and never bought another sony system. Seems like gaming started to decline around then also. But who knows.

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Re: ps4 backwards compatibility

Apr 23, 2013

Phillyblunz wrote:

Its a risk vs reward situation.

 

If they spend money getting PS3 games working on PS4 they risk not recouping that money. 


Except that Sony wouldn't be the ones paying extra to include full backward compatibility, so there'd really be no risk on Sony's end.

 

The PS4 is going to be around $450 as it is.  To add full B/C to it, they would basically need to include the PS3 and PS2 hardware inside the case.  That would add about an additional $300-350 per unit to the cost (it's not just the Cell/EE and supporting hardware, it's the extra cooling that having two hot-running CPUs in the same case - the Cell and the Jaguar - that the PS4 would require).  Do you think Sony will sell the PS4 at a nearly 50% loss per unit sold?  I think it's safe to say that they would not.  They'd probably pass that cost on to the consumer, so you'd be looking at about $800 for a full B/C PS4, which is more than the PS3 cost at launch, and much pricier than budget PCs.

 

Considering the PS3 will probably see an immediate $50-100 price drop upon launch of the PS4, would you really pay $300+ more for a B/C PS4 when you'll likely be able to buy a PS3 for around $200?  Really?

 

And that's not even touching the size that a 3-in-1 console would need to be to fit all that extra hardware...

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I Only Post Everything
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Re: ps4 backwards compatibility

Apr 23, 2013
Any "short" versions of the PS3 games you are talking about are re-coded in the CPU architecture of the system they are played on. It is NOT an actual emulation of the game which is the only thing that can lead to playing PS3 games on a PS4.

Let me ask you this. Are there any PS3 emulators out there on the internet? Any? No? Well considering that the CPU processing power of the PS4 is going to be on par with the PC CPU power available right now, how can PS3 emulation happen?

Please, PLEASE do some research on hardware emulation. It will open your eyes and let you know more about why PS3 B/C is just simply impossible on the PS4. Believe me, I would LOVE to have B/C on the PS4, but after doing research about it I know that it simply cannot happen.

The ONLY people who are **bleep** and whining about B/C make up the smallest percentage of those who purchase consoles and games. It's just that those who can't get what they want cry the loudest. If everybody who didn't care about B/C with the PS4 posted on the forums, it would be OVERWHELMINGLY the majority over the criers.

I'm sorry, but Sony has a great number of analysts and more intelligent employees who have done their research into this issue. If it was financially smart to include B/C, they would have figured out a way to do it. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the majority of consumers don't give a rat's **bleep** about B/C, so hence it was not included.
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Fender Bender
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Re: ps4 backwards compatibility

[ Edited ]
Apr 23, 2013

@CaptainAlbator: Well technically, when you think about it, including backwards compatibility in the new console could get one to buy it, and after buying the new console they can sell new games to those people. Not to mention that not everyone the previous console and  they could have used that to lure in new customers to buy their newest console.

 

They still sell PS3 games in both discs and on the PSN store. So including backward compatibility would not always mean they would lose out on money, especially considering the fact that many people who owned a PS1 and PS2 did not own a PS3.

 

Before I bought a PS3, my PS2 broke.  I chose to buy a PS3, it was the 60 GB PS3, rather than a new PS2. After buying a PS3 I bought PS3 games later on.

 

I understand why they can't include backwards compatibility on the PS4 but I never understood why they removed backwards compatibility with PS2 games from the PS3.

 

Can you imagine how cool it would have been if the PS4 was backwards compatible with PS1, PS2 and PS3 games? That would have given the PS4 a HUGE advantage from the start. That alone would have gotten some people to buy it. So including backwards compatibility could have some advantages for a company.

 

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I Only Post Everything
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Re: ps4 backwards compatibility

Apr 23, 2013

Icestar10 wrote:

@CaptainAlbator: Well technically, when you think about it, including backwards compatibility in the new console could get one to buy it, and after buying the new console they can sell new games to those people. Not to mention that not everyone has a PS3 and  they could have used that to lure in new customers.

 

They still sell PS3 games in both discs and on the PSN store. So including backward compatibility would not always mean they would lose out on money, especially considering the fact that many people who owned a PS1 and PS2 did not own a PS3.

Before I bought a PS3, my PS2 broke.  I chose to buy a PS3, it was the 60 GB PS3,  rather than a new PS2. After buying a PS3 I bought PS3 games later on.

 

I understand why they can't include backwards compatibility on the PS4 but I never understood why they removed it from the PS3.


So let's say 20% of the consumer base will not buy a PS4 without backwards compatibility.  And let's state that Sony will sell the PS4 at a $50 loss per unit.  (And that's VERY conservative in terms of loss per unit).  If they sell 1,000,000 units on launch, that means a loss of $50,000,000 on the PS4 itself without backwards compatibility.  So if the 20% of the consumer base doesn't purchase the unit, then Sony would only lose $40,000,000 on the launch consoles.

 

Now let's say they include B/C in terms of hardware for the PS4.  This gets those 20% of people to purchase a unit.  Now, to include B/C it costs Sony another $100 (again, being conservative) in losses on the hardware.  They now lose $150 for every unit sold.  This means a loss of $150,000,000 on the console at launch.  You're telling me that the vast minority of individuals who want B/C will make up for the additional $110,000,000 in losses that Sony would incur by including B/C? 

 

Sorry, but that is financially stupid.

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Fender Bender
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Re: ps4 backwards compatibility

[ Edited ]
Apr 23, 2013

Jdurg wrote:

Icestar10 wrote:

@CaptainAlbator: Well technically, when you think about it, including backwards compatibility in the new console could get one to buy it, and after buying the new console they can sell new games to those people. Not to mention that not everyone has a PS3 and  they could have used that to lure in new customers.

 

They still sell PS3 games in both discs and on the PSN store. So including backward compatibility would not always mean they would lose out on money, especially considering the fact that many people who owned a PS1 and PS2 did not own a PS3.

Before I bought a PS3, my PS2 broke.  I chose to buy a PS3, it was the 60 GB PS3,  rather than a new PS2. After buying a PS3 I bought PS3 games later on.

 

I understand why they can't include backwards compatibility on the PS4 but I never understood why they removed it from the PS3.


So let's say 20% of the consumer base will not buy a PS4 without backwards compatibility.  And let's state that Sony will sell the PS4 at a $50 loss per unit.  (And that's VERY conservative in terms of loss per unit).  If they sell 1,000,000 units on launch, that means a loss of $50,000,000 on the PS4 itself without backwards compatibility.  So if the 20% of the consumer base doesn't purchase the unit, then Sony would only lose $40,000,000 on the launch consoles.

 

Now let's say they include B/C in terms of hardware for the PS4.  This gets those 20% of people to purchase a unit.  Now, to include B/C it costs Sony another $100 (again, being conservative) in losses on the hardware.  They now lose $150 for every unit sold.  This means a loss of $150,000,000 on the console at launch.  You're telling me that the vast minority of individuals who want B/C will make up for the additional $110,000,000 in losses that Sony would incur by including B/C? 

 

Sorry, but that is financially stupid.


Um...I was not talking about the PS4 in particular...I was talking about the whole concept of backwards compatibility in general. If anything my post was referring more to the PS3's backwards compatibility rather than the PS4. 

 

CaptainAlbator has been saying again and again that the Sony does not make money off of backwards compatibility, this is true, they don't gain any money by just having the option to play older games.  Did you know that backwards compatibility did not cost Sony much with the PS3? They were still selling PS2 games long after the PS3 came out. They were still able to sell PS2 games to PS3 owners when the PS3 was backwards compatible. 

 

Also, I seriously hope you weren’t calling me stupid. We can have discussions without insulting. Smiley Happy

 

 

 

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Gaming Beast
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Re: ps4 backwards compatibility

Apr 24, 2013

If sony looses 20% more in the next years, on top of the 30% drop in gaming for the last 4 or 5 years gaming will not servive the fallout. Sony will have lost the battle. People are pulling away from gaming in the last little while. They need a wow affect to pull people away from other eletronics that is moving faster than gaming is. Taking away something that might make more sell is not a good way to make it better. Like I say, they should have thought of this the first day they started development of ps4. It is a little late now though.

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Fender Bender
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Re: ps4 backwards compatibility

Apr 24, 2013

CyberOcelot wrote:

 

To be honest, my response was mostly out of agitation because I saw someone dismissed because of another users "love" for a console. No matter how cool the console or company, it's business as usual. Fanboyism is silly. I know. I used to be one. Smiley Wink


 

I agree completely! Smiley Happy

 

Fanboyism is in fact silly. Some people here and in many forums seem to get offended if anyone says anything negative about the companies just because they love their products.. Companies only care about money, they don’t care about these fanboys. These fanboys need to wake up and stop wasting their time defending these companies. 

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: ps4 backwards compatibility

Apr 24, 2013

I agree, its away to make extra money out of old consoles.  If people want to play the old games they will have to buy the ps3.  I think thats why the ps2 lasted longer due to the fact that there was no backwards compatibility.  the xbox 1 and gamecube quickly died of because there was backwards compatibility. If they Do make a model with backwards compatibility, I may spend a little more just for that system..

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