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Lombax Warrior
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Re: I cried and I am not ashamed

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Sep 27, 2013

MaidenVelka wrote:

To anybody who hates Joel because of the Ranch House scene -

 

You are not being fair.  Hating him means that you did not attempt to look at the world through his eyes.  We all fell in love with Ellie, but that doesn't make the game a one-sided device.  Joel lost his daughter, who Ellie reminds him of very much.  He is unable to deal with the sorrow that is building inside him by being around her.  To deal with the trauma that is Sarah's death, and to survive protecting his brother afterward, Joel buried those feelings away.  He couldn't confront them not because he is a bad person who should be hated.  He is weak, the same as we all are, the same as we all have weaknesses.

 

I felt extremely sorry for Joel because I knew he was not equipped emotionally to handle all that he was feeling.  I don't know if anyone else has ever ran from their emotions completely as Joel has, but it can tear you down in short time.  Your personality changes, as does the world around you.  Joel has been dealing with that for twenty years, and in a world in which just about everything seems to want to kill him.  Joel had been thinking of Ellie as Sarah, without an ability to differentiate between the two.  I don't yet have children, but I can't even imagine who I would be if a child was taken from me.  I sincerely doubt I would have treated Ellie any differently, or better, while wearing Joel's shoes.

 

And neither would have any of you.  It's easy to say how our relationship with Ellie would have developed as a gamer looking in.  Stop and truly think about being forty nine years old, going on fifty, and how you have spent the last twenty years furious with the world that took your daughter.  I would be cursing the sun every day, and would hate all other people.

 

All I'm saying is, give Joel some credit and a chance to heal.  Ellie is the first person who allowed Joel to feel comfort, or to feel at all after two decades.  She is tuned in to him, thankfully for them both, and realizes that Joel is not treating her as a separate person.  Joel comes around fairly quickly and should earn our love despite the Ranch House scene.


My body buddy you wrote that knows that. Anyway i have to give you a cookie for that. It's not that easy to accept a lost like Sarah. Everyone who think that here, doesn't lost a own children! And please don't forget in Joel's world is no one to help!

You definitely can't solve this psychological crisis on your own.

 

Ellie confronted him - it was a bomb - Joel wasn't prepared. 

In this situation we all were extrem dumb to the person who did this to us.

But Joel - oh my god i love him for that - saw just some minutes after this what he did and said and asked without words forgive me. Don't forget he didn't needed it to do.

 

One last note please don't forget that because it's real importend for me:

To loose the own children is for us humans the most critical impact you can have. Think about it.

"So don’t tell us we’d be happy with some other characters/games because the truth is, we’d just be more disappointed." - conquerator3

Status:
❒ single ❒ taken ✔ Joel

TLOU2:
Ellie: I've listen to your lie, and your story. And I can't take it anymore.
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Uncharted Territory
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Re: I cried and I am not ashamed

Sep 27, 2013

MaidenVelka wrote:

To anybody who hates Joel because of the Ranch House scene -

 

You are not being fair.  Hating him means that you did not attempt to look at the world through his eyes.  We all fell in love with Ellie, but that doesn't make the game a one-sided device.  Joel lost his daughter, who Ellie reminds him of very much.  He is unable to deal with the sorrow that is building inside him by being around her.  To deal with the trauma that is Sarah's death, and to survive protecting his brother afterward, Joel buried those feelings away.  He couldn't confront them not because he is a bad person who should be hated.  He is weak, the same as we all are, the same as we all have weaknesses.

 

I felt extremely sorry for Joel because I knew he was not equipped emotionally to handle all that he was feeling.  I don't know if anyone else has ever ran from their emotions completely as Joel has, but it can tear you down in short time.  Your personality changes, as does the world around you.  Joel has been dealing with that for twenty years, and in a world in which just about everything seems to want to kill him.  Joel had been thinking of Ellie as Sarah, without an ability to differentiate between the two.  I don't yet have children, but I can't even imagine who I would be if a child was taken from me.  I sincerely doubt I would have treated Ellie any differently, or better, while wearing Joel's shoes.

 

And neither would have any of you.  It's easy to say how our relationship with Ellie would have developed as a gamer looking in.  Stop and truly think about being forty nine years old, going on fifty, and how you have spent the last twenty years furious with the world that took your daughter.  I would be cursing the sun every day, and would hate all other people.

 

All I'm saying is, give Joel some credit and a chance to heal.  Ellie is the first person who allowed Joel to feel comfort, or to feel at all after two decades.  She is tuned in to him, thankfully for them both, and realizes that Joel is not treating her as a separate person.  Joel comes around fairly quickly and should earn our love despite the Ranch House scene.


'Tis written very well and I agree.

Perhaps I cannot feel the same way as Joel as I have not yet lost someone very dear to me, to meet someone else who tties to take his place.

Perhaps if the prologue was a tad more than it was, we could grow more attached to Sarah. There are pictures and hints throughout the house but I don't think it's enough for us to make a substantial bond.

The prologue is sad nonetheless. Very sad.

Saying that, if Ellie were to die at the very end, I would feel the same way Joel did at the beginning - no questions about it, as I grew attached to her.

You make a good point. I retract my statement :]

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: I cried and I am not ashamed

Sep 27, 2013

kleen_nexi wrote:

MaidenVelka wrote:

To anybody who hates Joel because of the Ranch House scene -

 

You are not being fair.  Hating him means that you did not attempt to look at the world through his eyes.  We all fell in love with Ellie, but that doesn't make the game a one-sided device.  Joel lost his daughter, who Ellie reminds him of very much.  He is unable to deal with the sorrow that is building inside him by being around her.  To deal with the trauma that is Sarah's death, and to survive protecting his brother afterward, Joel buried those feelings away.  He couldn't confront them not because he is a bad person who should be hated.  He is weak, the same as we all are, the same as we all have weaknesses.

 

I felt extremely sorry for Joel because I knew he was not equipped emotionally to handle all that he was feeling.  I don't know if anyone else has ever ran from their emotions completely as Joel has, but it can tear you down in short time.  Your personality changes, as does the world around you.  Joel has been dealing with that for twenty years, and in a world in which just about everything seems to want to kill him.  Joel had been thinking of Ellie as Sarah, without an ability to differentiate between the two.  I don't yet have children, but I can't even imagine who I would be if a child was taken from me.  I sincerely doubt I would have treated Ellie any differently, or better, while wearing Joel's shoes.

 

And neither would have any of you.  It's easy to say how our relationship with Ellie would have developed as a gamer looking in.  Stop and truly think about being forty nine years old, going on fifty, and how you have spent the last twenty years furious with the world that took your daughter.  I would be cursing the sun every day, and would hate all other people.

 

All I'm saying is, give Joel some credit and a chance to heal.  Ellie is the first person who allowed Joel to feel comfort, or to feel at all after two decades.  She is tuned in to him, thankfully for them both, and realizes that Joel is not treating her as a separate person.  Joel comes around fairly quickly and should earn our love despite the Ranch House scene.


My body buddy you wrote that knows that. Anyway i have to give you a cookie for that. It's not that easy to accept a lost like Sarah. Everyone who think that here, doesn't lost a own children! And please don't forget in Joel's world is no one to help!

You definitely can't solve this psychological crisis on your own.

 

Ellie confronted him - it was a bomb - Joel wasn't prepared. 

In this situation we all were extrem dumb to the person who did this to us.

But Joel - oh my god i love him for that - saw just some minutes after this what he did and said and asked without words forgive me. Don't forget he didn't needed it to do.

 

One last note please don't forget that because it's real importend for me:

To loose the own children is for us humans the most critical impact you can have. Think about it.


Yes, that he did, though he did it for himself more than for her, me thinks.

As he's saved by that very argument. He realizes just who Ellie is for him, and it becomes apparent from there on.

For it made him think about it and realize that important thing - to quote you -  "To loose the own children is for us humans the most critical impact you can have" - that she is becoming his daughter and is more dear to him, and he accepts it at that very parting point.

As we go through the game beginning - "cargo" - kid - Ellie - appreciative of her - conflict - realization - kinda like a daughter - baby girl -> substitute daughter - end

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Wastelander
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Re: I cried and I am not ashamed

Sep 27, 2013
When Sarah died and the Ranch House scene made me tear up.


Oh and I dont care if Joel was or wasnt a **bleep** during the Ranch House stuff, it made a crazy emotional scene.
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Hekseville Citizen
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Re: I cried and I am not ashamed

Sep 27, 2013

MaidenVelka wrote:

To anybody who hates Joel because of the Ranch House scene -

 

You are not being fair.  Hating him means that you did not attempt to look at the world through his eyes.  We all fell in love with Ellie, but that doesn't make the game a one-sided device.  Joel lost his daughter, who Ellie reminds him of very much.  He is unable to deal with the sorrow that is building inside him by being around her.  To deal with the trauma that is Sarah's death, and to survive protecting his brother afterward, Joel buried those feelings away.  He couldn't confront them not because he is a bad person who should be hated.  He is weak, the same as we all are, the same as we all have weaknesses.

 

I felt extremely sorry for Joel because I knew he was not equipped emotionally to handle all that he was feeling.  I don't know if anyone else has ever ran from their emotions completely as Joel has, but it can tear you down in short time.  Your personality changes, as does the world around you.  Joel has been dealing with that for twenty years, and in a world in which just about everything seems to want to kill him.  Joel had been thinking of Ellie as Sarah, without an ability to differentiate between the two.  I don't yet have children, but I can't even imagine who I would be if a child was taken from me.  I sincerely doubt I would have treated Ellie any differently, or better, while wearing Joel's shoes.

 

And neither would have any of you.  It's easy to say how our relationship with Ellie would have developed as a gamer looking in.  Stop and truly think about being forty nine years old, going on fifty, and how you have spent the last twenty years furious with the world that took your daughter.  I would be cursing the sun every day, and would hate all other people.

 

All I'm saying is, give Joel some credit and a chance to heal.  Ellie is the first person who allowed Joel to feel comfort, or to feel at all after two decades.  She is tuned in to him, thankfully for them both, and realizes that Joel is not treating her as a separate person.  Joel comes around fairly quickly and should earn our love despite the Ranch House scene.


Well I don't retract my statement. Firstly, I think it is unfair for you to say I havn't tried to look at the world through Joels eyes just because you have a difference of opinion to me because I've thought very deeply about the character and why he is the man he is. In fact I agree with a lot of what you say about him. The bit that shocked me though wasn't at the ranch it was before that when they first enter the damb and Joel just hands Ellie over and walks off without so much as a "goodbye". After all they had gone through, the loyalty Ellie had shown him, the bond that was apparently forming and knowing full well how much it would hurt Ellie this was cold, heartless and yes selfish even by Joels standards. Despite being the tortured soul he is I still think he may have felt a bit more for her at that stage or at least treated her with a bit more respect and empathy.

The thing about Joel though is that he's a complex character with many different sides to his personality some of them very dark. He's an anti hero and as such is meant to be divisive.

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I Only Post Everything
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Re: I cried and I am not ashamed

Sep 28, 2013
I tried to shoot the giraffes. I never would have thought people would feel emotional about that scene.
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Fender Bender
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Re: I cried and I am not ashamed

Sep 28, 2013

EDSTA713 wrote:
I tried to shoot the giraffes. I never would have thought people would feel emotional about that scene.

You monster

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I Only Post Everything
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Re: I cried and I am not ashamed

Sep 28, 2013
I was just trying to pet it but the gun went off. Smiley Tongue
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Re: I cried and I am not ashamed

Sep 28, 2013
I didn't find the giraffe part as emotional as the others too... But no shooting lol Smiley Happy
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Re: I cried and I am not ashamed

Sep 28, 2013

You also have to remember that Joel had every intention of talking to Ellie about going off with Tommy.  He wanted to first determine that he could convince his brother to do the task; it would be pointless to go through the rollercoaster with Ellie if he had to finish escorting her anyway.  He specifically says to Ellie that they will talk about "it" later, likely when not in public view.

 

If the game had played out this way, without Ellie running off and having to be tracked to the Ranch House, the outcome would have probably been the same, probably.  Ellie would have made Joel realize who she is, and who she is not, and they would have continued on together.  Joel was simply making a mistake, an emotional one, but his heart corrected this in the end.

 

You, no1_narwhal_fan, only stated that you were angry with Joel, and it was in part because you stopped playing before he could correct his mistake.  This is completely understandable.  Becoming angry with someone is acceptable so long as they are given a chance (if that chance is deserved, which I would hope it is in Joel's case) to make ammends.

Someone else wrote that they hated Joel because of the Ranch House, and that is actually what I wrote my long explanation for (that person has retracted their hate, thankfully).  I was angry with him.  You deny Ellie's existence if you aren't angry with Joel at that part lol.  Only a few minutes later Joel was back in my good graces (as a player) because he came to terms with his and Ellie's relationship.

 

Also, I know that I was overreacting in the first place.  Were talking about digital characters, and the use of the word 'hate' on a forum is not the same as it would be in real life.  Someone tells me they hate someone I care about in real life and I attempt to figure out why, or correct the issue.  It's only because I, all of us, have become so attached to them that I even wrote as much as I did haha.

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