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First Son
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Re: Joel was not selfish in his decision and here is why..

Jul 15, 2013

(Since the majority of this discussion seems to be about Joel stopping the cure from being made)

 

I am suprised no one has even mentioned that even if a cure was created, that the majority of people have been murdered already... It has been 20 freaking YEARS since the first outbreak, look at all the towns, who would the vaccine be saving? Sure you could give it to a quarantine zone, they won't turn infected, but what is stopping the already infected or now crazed population of hunters to just kill them anyway?

 

And I also agree with Joel's actions, nothing beats love yo!

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Hekseville Citizen
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Re: Joel was not selfish in his decision and here is why..

[ Edited ]
Jul 15, 2013

I've mentioned that in a thread debating pretty much the same thing.  The world had reverted effectively to a patchwork of fiefdoms, tribes, warlords, whatever.   After 20 years I would strongly suspect that things like sepsis, hunger, childbirth, exposure, violence, etc.. would be killing more people than the Cordyceps fungus.  That pandemic would largely have burned itself out.  The vaccine is a mute point by then.

 

And taking my child or a child I've taken under my wing for a fatal operation of questionable outcome would result in pretty much the same reaction they got from Joel.  Well, at least in my game.  There wasn't a thing left living in that place but us.


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First Son
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Re: Joel was not selfish in his decision and here is why..

Jul 15, 2013

Which to me should stop the debate all together... The only thing I wonder about is, since its a growing in her head (right?) wouldn't it eventually just kill her? or cause massive pain until death anyway? Much like a normal tumor.. That is what the debate should be !

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Hekseville Citizen
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Re: Joel was not selfish in his decision and here is why..

Jul 15, 2013

If that were the case, my goal would be to find her somewhere as safe as possible for the times and maybe give her some time to enjoy some amount of peace and childhood, if even possible after the journey and everything else


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Lombax Warrior
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Re: Joel was not selfish in his decision and here is why..

Jul 15, 2013

JMKilthau wrote:

Which to me should stop the debate all together... The only thing I wonder about is, since its a growing in her head (right?) wouldn't it eventually just kill her? or cause massive pain until death anyway? Much like a normal tumor.. That is what the debate should be !


No. 

 

It's not actually still growing. It DID grow but her immune system(which is what WOULD kill the fungus, if the fungus didn't disable it), isn't affected in Ellie so basically, her immune system is constantly fighting it. The real question is, can her immune system completely take it out.. DUN DUN DUN.

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Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future.

- John F. Kennedy
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First Son
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Re: Joel was not selfish in his decision and here is why..

Jul 15, 2013

Ahh thanks for clearing that up for me, when I played through the first time (on my second now) I just briefly remember them saying that it had grown, so I was like well thats **bleep**, even though she is immune its growing anyway. But that helps put me at ease!

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: Joel was not selfish in his decision and here is why..

Jul 15, 2013
No if your immune system is fighting it then there would be elevated levels of white blood cells (which there is not per doctors note). In all honesty this is what makes me suspect that her method of immunity is likely due to some genetic difference (similar to sickle cell anemia making you immune to malaria). If this is the case then most likely no cure could be found as its a genetic difference that is inherent and not something that can be replicated by "vaccinating" someone.
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Hekseville Citizen
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Re: Joel was not selfish in his decision and here is why..

Jul 15, 2013

semper_fi_1999 wrote:
No if your immune system is fighting it then there would be elevated levels of white blood cells (which there is not per doctors note). In all honesty this is what makes me suspect that her method of immunity is likely due to some genetic difference (similar to sickle cell anemia making you immune to malaria). If this is the case then most likely no cure could be found as its a genetic difference that is inherent and not something that can be replicated by "vaccinating" someone.

Dang.  Smart stuff there.


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Treasure Hunter
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Re: Joel was not selfish in his decision and here is why..

[ Edited ]
Jul 16, 2013
^ I was studying that doctor tape some more...and yeah, Ellie's immunity is definitely puzzling. The fungus is in there...alive, and will grow in culture, but her body doesn't see it as a foreign invader and is not reacting to it. Also, there's no fungal growth in the limbic regions of her brain, according to an MRI they took, which is what causes people to go nuts. Interesting stuff.

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Splicer
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Re: Joel was not selfish in his decision and here is why..

Jul 16, 2013
IMO, Joel isn't being selfish at all. A utilitarian pov is just one pov alone and not the end all be all of rationality. It most certainly is not the only ethical pov to judge Joel's choice. It doesn't even address the OP's opinion that Joel can't be something that no longer exists in this world (selfish) The utilitarian pov in this case isn't even a strong one. Who gets to decide what is the greatest good? Who decides what is best for all? Who calculates the net happiness vs net suffering to determine that the majority is happy? Who determines the best consequences? This is all subjective. It exists based on the thoughts and opinions of others. Laws do not exist anymore and world leaders are gone. utilitarianism is not about benefitting specific groups yet that is all mankind is in TLOU. Besides, right and wrong, good and bad are nothing more than subjective thoughts not truths. Choices are given positive and negative attachments based on individual opinions and nothing more. Utilitarianism is null and void pretty much.
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