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Survivor
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Re: Joel was not selfish in his decision and here is why..

Jul 16, 2013

Joel is **bleep**, why wud he all of a sudden need ellie so badly 20 years l8er when hes been at this gig for awhiel now.  If he didn't hang himself 20 years after his daughters death, why would he hang himself if ellie dies?  Bad writing, the characters and mini-talked made the game.  I need someone to outline to me how Ellie learned to like Joel, even though Joel was being a **bleep** for 95 percent of time.  Maybe even more.  Also he is obviously immune to being stabbed through the stomach.  I hope Joel is dead before last of us 2, i want to control a real hero like tommy, not a **bleep** like joel.  I also don't want to control elie, sorry but a 14 year old girl?  Man handling men?

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: Joel was not selfish in his decision and here is why..

Jul 16, 2013

sparkleus wrote:
IMO, Joel isn't being selfish at all. A utilitarian pov is just one pov alone and not the end all be all of rationality. It most certainly is not the only ethical pov to judge Joel's choice. It doesn't even address the OP's opinion that Joel can't be something that no longer exists in this world (selfish) The utilitarian pov in this case isn't even a strong one. Who gets to decide what is the greatest good? Who decides what is best for all? Who calculates the net happiness vs net suffering to determine that the majority is happy? Who determines the best consequences? This is all subjective. It exists based on the thoughts and opinions of others. Laws do not exist anymore and world leaders are gone. utilitarianism is not about benefitting specific groups yet that is all mankind is in TLOU. Besides, right and wrong, good and bad are nothing more than subjective thoughts not truths. Choices are given positive and negative attachments based on individual opinions and nothing more. Utilitarianism is null and void pretty much.

Although I agree that the utilitarian POV is not the only POV you can view this from...........I also completely disagree with your thoughts of all truth being subjective.  Selfishness, morality, etc they all still exist in this world.  Just because a majority of the human race has decided to ignore these truths and attempt to justify their decision by simply stating "its only about survival" doesnt mean the truths of how people "should" act no longer exist.....just that they ignore/justify their actions to ease their concious regarding the decisions they have made.

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Splicer
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Re: Joel was not selfish in his decision and here is why..

Jul 16, 2013

I didn't say truth is subjective I said right and wrong are not truths and therefore they are subjective. Selfishness and morality are nothing more than opinions. imo, Choices are morally neutral and are only considered right and wrong, moral or immoral based on indivdual opinions, they are just labels we staple onto choices to give them weight. It's not a fact nor a truth. You can call Joel selfish, but at the end of the day it is nothing more than an opinion. You can call the Hunters evil for eating humans, robbing and killing people but as henious as their crimes are. It is simply an opinion you have of their character. No one can fully dictate how everyone should behave nor is anyone obligated to live their lives according to the opinions of others. Especially in TLOU.

 

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: Joel was not selfish in his decision and here is why..

Jul 16, 2013
Its an interesting POV......one I completely disagree with but still interesting.

So by your theory there should be no penalties for robbery, murder, etc. since those are judgements of other peoples choices (which we should not do) and there is no true (or absolute) right or wrong only what you prefer.
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First Son
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Re: Joel was not selfish in his decision and here is why..

[ Edited ]
Jul 16, 2013

Well technically, the hunters that do that, and Davids group of hunters that do that (robbery, murder, etc), think it's right. So if a society gets created based on those beliefs then why would it be wrong? Yes in today's world it's considered wrong, but in a world such as this, where it is becoming a normalty, if those groups were to control the majority of the land then wouldn't they make the rules? Which would then, like I said, lead to a society that believes the murder and robbery of innocents is not wrong and is in fact a means of survival.

 

*Edit: Addition* I just also want to point out, that I am just debating to add to the discussion, I find it enjoyable to think on many points of view and interests.

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: Joel was not selfish in his decision and here is why..

Jul 16, 2013
Right but your assumption here is that a social contract is what determines right from wrong and that right/wrong are not inherent within themselves such that it is ALWAYS wrong to steal from other people. In this view what is right/wrong is based on what that society has decided is right and wrong...so in reality morality doesnt exist for any purpose other than to quantify what that society and decided to accept as a correct way of handling a situation and an incorrect way of handling a situation.

However by and large this does not show itself to be correct in terms of morality. People seem to know that there is a standard by which all man must weigh their decisions by and this standard does not change in a different society. If you look back at writings of ancient civilization that had little to no contact between eachother its amazing to see how very similar their writings are regarding right/wrong despite the fact that there could have been no meaningful contact between their societies that would lead them both to develop similar "social contracts".

Heck even in this game where people have stopped listening to their concious and decided that anything is permissable as long as they survive we see people who are repulsed by this idea. Tommy being perhaps the most obvious example.....but even then Joel seems to still understand this.
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Splicer
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Re: Joel was not selfish in his decision and here is why..

Jul 16, 2013

Joel saved Ellie for selfish reasons. In all your long winded ponderings nowhere could I find a reason why he was not being selfish. You could have argued that Joel didn't want humanity to make a comeback because (girrafe scene) he realized the earth was probably better off without them.... but you didn't.  

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: Joel was not selfish in his decision and here is why..

[ Edited ]
Jul 16, 2013

JOCKSnJAZZ wrote:

Joel saved Ellie for selfish reasons. In all your long winded ponderings nowhere could I find a reason why he was not being selfish. You could have argued that Joel didn't want humanity to make a comeback because (girrafe scene) he realized the earth was probably better off without them.... but you didn't.  


So by your same argument if you had a daughter who was taken by a scientist to be killed so that they can use the data they gain to potentially discover a vaccine it would be selfish of you to rescue her right? 

 

In this type of situation it is selfish for the fireflies to take Ellie and kill her for their own purposes.  They never gave her a choice.  Without the option of a choice Ellie is not sacrificing her life for the rest of humanity.....humanity is murdering her for the possibility of a cure they frankly dont give a rats behind what Ellie wants because they would do this whether Ellie agreed or not.  Joel was selfish in his lies to Ellie instead of telling her the truth of the matter.  However him rescuing Ellie is not being selfish....he is at this moment in the exact same role as the father in my example above would be......a man who loves this little girl soo much he is willing to die in an attempt to save her.  This is a selfless act on Joels part.....one of the few times he actually shows a selfless attitude towards another person in this journey. 

 

 

Honestly I think the fact that Ellie is unconcious is lost of almost everyone.  We all know she was unconcious but somehow that doesnt matter to some people.  The fact that she had no choice is truly the crux of the entire issue.  If she had in fact woken up and was explained what would happen and she agreed to sacrifice her life for the sake of others then Joels actions would indeed be selfish.  However she is never given this choice...not by anyone (even Joel).  As a result if no choice is actually made then you cannot assume she would agree to sacrifice herself.  The characters thought she might do this but noone is sure without giving her the choice...with no choice the fireflies were about to committ murder.  Honestly for the story this is probably why they chose to have Joel lie to Ellie in the end.........the whole story rests on whether Ellie would give her life or not for the sake of finding a cure and the story leaves this open....it hints at the fact that she might be willing to do this...however at the end she then decides to follow Joel and thus chooses to continue to live (despite the fact that she knows he is lying to her in some way she just doesnt know the details on exactly what it is). 

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First Son
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Re: Joel was not selfish in his decision and here is why..

Jul 16, 2013

I think what we need to first remember about this part of the game is that it is implied that Ellie knows, as I'm sure the Fireflies would have told her. And I'm sure Joel can figure that out as well. So though maybe he's not being "selfish", blatantly lying to this girl who is clearly wise beyond her years, growing up in hell, I do think it was the wrong decision or at least a decision based on false pretences. By lying to Ellie really nothing has changed. "To save her from survivor's guilt" is a pretty bad reason I think. Everybody who is alive at that moment would have survivor's guilt. As we've seen not only Joel do, but others that were hunting him do, everybody in this world has done horrible things. Killed kids, stolen, murdered, etc... So to save someone such a petty emotion like survivor's guilt seems pretty arbitrary and unnecessary. As Ellie has proven many many many times, she's a big girl. And though she acts immature sometimes (running away, etc...) Her good grown-up qualities far outweigh the immature ones.

 

So no, maybe it wasn't a selfish act, but I think Joel's reasoning, whatever it was, was pretty petty and irresponsible. He has now put himself in a position where a vulnerable child who has trusted him implicitly may now start questioning his integrity.

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: Joel was not selfish in his decision and here is why..

Jul 16, 2013

EarlobesUnite wrote:

I think what we need to first remember about this part of the game is that it is implied that Ellie knows, as I'm sure the Fireflies would have told her. And I'm sure Joel can figure that out as well. So though maybe he's not being "selfish", blatantly lying to this girl who is clearly wise beyond her years, growing up in hell, I do think it was the wrong decision or at least a decision based on false pretences. By lying to Ellie really nothing has changed. "To save her from survivor's guilt" is a pretty bad reason I think. Everybody who is alive at that moment would have survivor's guilt. As we've seen not only Joel do, but others that were hunting him do, everybody in this world has done horrible things. Killed kids, stolen, murdered, etc... So to save someone such a petty emotion like survivor's guilt seems pretty arbitrary and unnecessary. As Ellie has proven many many many times, she's a big girl. And though she acts immature sometimes (running away, etc...) Her good grown-up qualities far outweigh the immature ones.

 

So no, maybe it wasn't a selfish act, but I think Joel's reasoning, whatever it was, was pretty petty and irresponsible. He has now put himself in a position where a vulnerable child who has trusted him implicitly may now start questioning his integrity.


If you are saying the game implies that Ellies knows she will be killed then I dont know where you are getting that information.  In all of the conversations will Ellie she implies that she believes that she will have a life after they finish their research and developing a cure/vaccine.....she even goes so far as to tell Joel that she wants to learn to swim and go to a bunch of other places with him. 

 

The fact that Ellie never chooses is the reason why there are soo many disputes on whether what Joel did was right or not.  Lets say that the fireflies woke up Ellie and she refused to be sacrificed for the cure.....then what the fireflies did was infact an attempt to murder a little girl for their own personal gain.  Wherease if she woke up and agreed and then Joel took her away despite that decision then he would indeed be selfish in his reasons for rescuing her.  However the story itself leaves this up to the players interpretation.  It hints enough that you think Ellie would probably decide to sacrifice her life....but then she decides to follow Joel (thus choosing life) instead of pressing on an issue she knows he is lying about.  So in the end you are left wondering if she was truly given this option with plenty of time to weigh it over.....what would she actually decide? 

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