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Lombax Warrior
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Re: Melee Combat - The pax east footage

Mar 26, 2013

To be honest, I think you guys are looking way to hard into this. The melee is pretty much a refined version of Uncharted's melee. Nothing more, and nothing less. It's just being worked on to be better implemented here with more variety and smarter AI behaviors. Everything you guys are talking about can be found in Uncharted, and they play out exactly like they do in this. I mean, the fish market fight in Uncharted 3 and the pub brawl, they are basically what this game is about.

 

Developers don't just make up new systems for things just because they can. It's how Assassin's Creed IV led to naval battles, because they tested the system with AC3. This is also why I think Uncharted 4 will be about Atlantis, because ND really tested their ability to handle water in UC3 (all the boat levels, the DLC map ship graveyard), and it provides the perfect challenge for their developers to expand upon it while still fitting in with the Uncharted universe.

 

The different thing in this game is you can change weapons, there are differenty enemy types to fight with different behaviors, there is more freedom in how to move, and the damage system is different. However, the actual handling of combat is probably the exact same as Uncharted. Press a button to melee (probably square), press a button when behind a person to stealth kill (probably triangle), you can break out of any combo by simply walking away (meaning press square once, and instead of again, just back off...people never understood this in Uncharted. They always thought they were locked into a combo...this is not true).

 

Yeah, there really is no reason to analyze this. If anything it should be compared with Uncharted's to see where they made improvements, like the ones I mentioned above. That, and it seems like contextual references are better (meaning, you don't have to be so close to a drawer for the characters to interact with it...the combat will naturally flow to the drawer, or wall, or whatever object ND programmed the AI to be able to interact with).

 

So, yeah, in my opinion just by reading your posts, you guys are thinking about this WAY too hard. It's Uncharted's melee refined and retuned. Compare it to that. 

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Naughty Host
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Re: Melee Combat - The pax east footage

Mar 26, 2013
^ I disagree

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: Melee Combat - The pax east footage

Mar 26, 2013


I've never played Uncharted so you guys mind telling me the differences and similarties and why do you disagree about Rogue's post?

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Sackboy
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Re: Melee Combat - The pax east footage

Mar 26, 2013

I think the main difference is that in Ucnharted you can defend yourself manually and consistently. You may be surrounded by enemies and still get a flawless victory. It's a more simple version of Batman's melee, basically (in case you played Batman).

 

I think TLOU is radically different, because you can't defend yourself like this. Look at the trailers and see how Joel only 'defends' himself after he looses health. If your enemy get the initiative on you, you will loose health. What looks like a defense is the way by which Joel turns the table on the enemy (after loosing health). If you try to beat a group of enemies, you will loose health, in TLOU; no way to get a flawless victory, like in Uncharted; or else there wouldn't be much of a sense of survival.

 

If there actually is a defense button, my guess, now, is that it is running away (L2) after you get hit (as in that gif from pax), instead of choosing to turn the tables on the enemy that hit you, cause then you would get hit again, by one of his friends.

 

I don't think TLOU melee is going to be technical, with specific reactions. I think it's going to be pure strategy, all about how you approach the enemies and whether or not you decide to disengage.

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: Melee Combat - The pax east footage

Mar 26, 2013

Solid_Altair wrote:

I think the main difference is that in Ucnharted you can defend yourself manually and consistently. You may be surrounded by enemies and still get a flawless victory. It's a more simple version of Batman's melee, basically (in case you played Batman).

 

I think TLOU is radically different, because you can't defend yourself like this. Look at the trailers and see how Joel only 'defends' himself after he looses health. If your enemy get the initiative on you, you will loose health. What looks like a defense is the way by which Joel turns the table on the enemy (after loosing health). If you try to beat a group of enemies, you will loose health, in TLOU; no way to get a flawless victory, like in Uncharted; or else there wouldn't be much of a sense of survival.

 

If there actually is a defense button, my guess, now, is that it is running away (L2) after you get hit (as in that gif from pax), instead of choosing to turn the tables on the enemy that hit you, cause then you would get hit again, by one of his friends.

 

I don't think TLOU melee is going to be technical, with specific reactions. I think it's going to be pure strategy, all about how you approach the enemies and whether or not you decide to disengage.


Sorry I'm to poor to afford games! Haven't even played Batman yet! Anyways thanks for the input :smileyhappy:

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Lombax Warrior
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Re: Melee Combat - The pax east footage

Mar 26, 2013

Solid_Altair wrote:

I think the main difference is that in Ucnharted you can defend yourself manually and consistently. You may be surrounded by enemies and still get a flawless victory. It's a more simple version of Batman's melee, basically (in case you played Batman).

 

I think TLOU is radically different, because you can't defend yourself like this. Look at the trailers and see how Joel only 'defends' himself after he looses health. If your enemy get the initiative on you, you will loose health. What looks like a defense is the way by which Joel turns the table on the enemy (after loosing health). If you try to beat a group of enemies, you will loose health, in TLOU; no way to get a flawless victory, like in Uncharted; or else there wouldn't be much of a sense of survival.

 

If there actually is a defense button, my guess, now, is that it is running away (L2) after you get hit (as in that gif from pax), instead of choosing to turn the tables on the enemy that hit you, cause then you would get hit again, by one of his friends.

 

I don't think TLOU melee is going to be technical, with specific reactions. I think it's going to be pure strategy, all about how you approach the enemies and whether or not you decide to disengage.


You can't defend yourself manually. It's a button prompt implemented after an AI has been programmed to attack. It's the only way to block...to hit the button prompt and counter the attack. Otherwise, it's just attack attack attack or run. There is no blocking in Uncharted.

Like I said, they refined the system by implementing more AI mechanics, meaning the enemies actually try to do something to you more than in Uncharted. And when they do, they don't (at least by all the footage we have seen) implement a "counter" button like in batman and Uncharted. Therefore, this puts more risk into attacking by melee, because if you get attacked as the player, you can't counter it. However, they might have a counter button, who knows.

 

But you have to understand the enemies in this have been given more animations, so those animations MUST be carried out before a button can be pressed by the player. Hence why in the E3 extended demo, the dude grabbed joel and smashed his head into a drawer, and then grabbed him during his recovery time. If they were to implement a counter button, this would be the place do put it, but they didn't...meaning you have to wait until the enemy finishes those actions before doing your own. This causes you to lose health because you can't counter it...so if you get jumped by an enemy...you get jumped because there is no counter. So yes, you lose health because you cannot counter it.

 

Imagine the E3 demo if where, right before you got your head smashed, you pressed triangle (like in Uncharted) and Joel would dodge the attack. That takes A LOT of programming, I am assuming, because the situation is different in that Joel is on the ground, crouched, etc. It's not like in Uncharted or Batman where he is stuck in combat stance and therefore the counter animation can be defaulted according to a specific "fight" context. Joel is in too many different contexts to have a counter button to be implemented in this game, especially with restrictions to this generation of gaming and development.

 

However, maybe they implemented one in standard one-to-one brawls, I don't know.

 

I mean, just watch the footage. It's so easy to see the comparisons between Uncharted and this it boggles my mind how you guys aren't willing to accept this is just a glorified version of it. Like I said, there's no restriction of movement in this, meaning you can just stealth anybody, fight them whenever, and so on, which means that's an improvement from Uncharted's near scripted melee sequences or sequences where you either brawl and gun or cover and gun. There is also more cover, and more ways the AI can interact with the environment. However, how everything is being implemented and PLAYED by the player is pretty much identitcal to Uncharted. Press square to attack, press triangle to counter (if there is a counter), and time everything so you don't get jumped by an enemy. All the guy is doing is hitting square.

 

If there is confirmation of a counter button, then you can bet this will play like Uncharted's melee, but better and more immersive. What are you guys honestly expecting, ESPECIALLY after watching the pax footage?? If you guys are talking about the enemy picking up joel, walking, etc. in the E3 demo?? Those are all ANIMATIONS. Imagine the chokehold in uncharted that you get into if an enemy grabs you from behind. Imagine that now, but with Drake programmed to struggle in many variations while you furiously tap square or something.

 

It's CINEMATIC GAMEPLAY. It's not "press specific buttons for specific animations." Cinematic gameplay is what ND excels at, for better or for worse (some critics and players don't like it). I LOVE it. I'm not expecting this to have a combo system, or multiple attack buttons. I'm expecting to press square to attack, and time my attacks accordingly, and this is all being emphasized by the AI's ability to respond to contextual enviromental facets (like smashing the dude against the wall instead of punching him in the combo, or smashing his face against a drawer).

 

Truly, I want to know how you guys are interrpreting this, because it just seems like you guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment. The only attack button melee-wise is square. Everything else is cinematic programming and enviromental interaction programming. We haven't seen a counter button, but if there is one, it's triangle. Apply the same programming to this and you have the combat system, which is an improved, refined version of Uncharted's. Simple to understand, especially because it's already been shown (except a counter button).

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Naughty Host
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Re: Melee Combat - The pax east footage

Mar 26, 2013

Rogue_Eagle wrote:

Solid_Altair wrote:

I think the main difference is that in Ucnharted you can defend yourself manually and consistently. You may be surrounded by enemies and still get a flawless victory. It's a more simple version of Batman's melee, basically (in case you played Batman).

 

I think TLOU is radically different, because you can't defend yourself like this. Look at the trailers and see how Joel only 'defends' himself after he looses health. If your enemy get the initiative on you, you will loose health. What looks like a defense is the way by which Joel turns the table on the enemy (after loosing health). If you try to beat a group of enemies, you will loose health, in TLOU; no way to get a flawless victory, like in Uncharted; or else there wouldn't be much of a sense of survival.

 

If there actually is a defense button, my guess, now, is that it is running away (L2) after you get hit (as in that gif from pax), instead of choosing to turn the tables on the enemy that hit you, cause then you would get hit again, by one of his friends.

 

I don't think TLOU melee is going to be technical, with specific reactions. I think it's going to be pure strategy, all about how you approach the enemies and whether or not you decide to disengage.


You can't defend yourself manually. It's a button prompt implemented after an AI has been programmed to attack. It's the only way to block...to hit the button prompt and counter the attack. Otherwise, it's just attack attack attack or run. There is no blocking in Uncharted.

Like I said, they refined the system by implementing more AI mechanics, meaning the enemies actually try to do something to you more than in Uncharted. And when they do, they don't (at least by all the footage we have seen) implement a "counter" button like in batman and Uncharted. Therefore, this puts more risk into attacking by melee, because if you get attacked as the player, you can't counter it. However, they might have a counter button, who knows.

 

But you have to understand the enemies in this have been given more animations, so those animations MUST be carried out before a button can be pressed by the player. Hence why in the E3 extended demo, the dude grabbed joel and smashed his head into a drawer, and then grabbed him during his recovery time. If they were to implement a counter button, this would be the place do put it, but they didn't...meaning you have to wait until the enemy finishes those actions before doing your own. This causes you to lose health because you can't counter it...so if you get jumped by an enemy...you get jumped because there is no counter. So yes, you lose health because you cannot counter it.

 

Imagine the E3 demo if where, right before you got your head smashed, you pressed triangle (like in Uncharted) and Joel would dodge the attack. That takes A LOT of programming, I am assuming, because the situation is different in that Joel is on the ground, crouched, etc. It's not like in Uncharted or Batman where he is stuck in combat stance and therefore the counter animation can be defaulted according to a specific "fight" context. Joel is in too many different contexts to have a counter button to be implemented in this game, especially with restrictions to this generation of gaming and development.

 

However, maybe they implemented one in standard one-to-one brawls, I don't know.

 

I mean, just watch the footage. It's so easy to see the comparisons between Uncharted and this it boggles my mind how you guys aren't willing to accept this is just a glorified version of it. Like I said, there's no restriction of movement in this, meaning you can just stealth anybody, fight them whenever, and so on, which means that's an improvement from Uncharted's near scripted melee sequences or sequences where you either brawl and gun or cover and gun. There is also more cover, and more ways the AI can interact with the environment. However, how everything is being implemented and PLAYED by the player is pretty much identitcal to Uncharted. Press square to attack, press triangle to counter (if there is a counter), and time everything so you don't get jumped by an enemy. All the guy is doing is hitting square.

 

If there is confirmation of a counter button, then you can bet this will play like Uncharted's melee, but better and more immersive. What are you guys honestly expecting, ESPECIALLY after watching the pax footage?? If you guys are talking about the enemy picking up joel, walking, etc. in the E3 demo?? Those are all ANIMATIONS. Imagine the chokehold in uncharted that you get into if an enemy grabs you from behind. Imagine that now, but with Drake programmed to struggle in many variations while you furiously tap square or something.

 

It's CINEMATIC GAMEPLAY. It's not "press specific buttons for specific animations." Cinematic gameplay is what ND excels at, for better or for worse (some critics and players don't like it). I LOVE it. I'm not expecting this to have a combo system, or multiple attack buttons. I'm expecting to press square to attack, and time my attacks accordingly, and this is all being emphasized by the AI's ability to respond to contextual enviromental facets (like smashing the dude against the wall instead of punching him in the combo, or smashing his face against a drawer).

 

Truly, I want to know how you guys are interrpreting this, because it just seems like you guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment. The only attack button melee-wise is square. Everything else is cinematic programming and enviromental interaction programming. We haven't seen a counter button, but if there is one, it's triangle. Apply the same programming to this and you have the combat system, which is an improved, refined version of Uncharted's. Simple to understand, especially because it's already been shown (except a counter button).


  1. You're doing great, just a couple more evades
  2. Counter attack by pressing |S| right after a successful evade.
  3. Great! Evade tutorial completed, now let's learn to attack
  4. Great, now press |S| to counter attack.
  5. Keep practicing counter attacks, you won't be allowed to do normal attacks
    1. Press |T| during an incoming attack to evade
    2. Great! Practice evading a few more times
    3. Press |T| to evade an incoming attack
    4. Press |S| for a melee attack, press |S| repeatedly to combo
      Press |T| to evade and then quickly press |S| to do a counter attack
      When you hit an enemy down to a knee, press the left stick towards them and press |T| to take them as a hostage
      1. Sometimes you can take a hostage without being in stealth
      2. You can use the left stick to move with your hostage
      3. This is the grapple tutorial
        1. Now run to the enemy and grab them with |T| while they are still staggered
        2. Whoops
        3. Now aim and shoot as normal with |L1| and |R1|
        4. Hit the enemy down to the ground with |S| and then grab them with |T|
          1. Try again, make sure to point towards the enemy with the left stick and press |T|
          2. Finish off a downed enemy by running up to them and pressing |S| Don't kill him! Jeez... Grab the enemy with |T| when he's downed.
          3. Throw the brick with |R1| then run to the enemy and grab with |T|
          4. Keep an eye out, there are many moves that take an enemy to a knee
          5. You can also hit an enemy with a brick or bottle and grab them while they are stunned
          6. Try again
          7. If you have a pistol, you can aim and shoot while you have a hostage
          8. Great, now try it on your own a few times
          9. Hunting Knife
          10. Try again.  
          11. Make sure to close the distance before you press |S|
          12. Or you can also finish off a downed enemy by running up to them and pressing |S|
          13. This is the stealth kill tutorial
          14. Great! Now try to take down both of these enemies without them noticing you
          15. During the struggle, rapidly tap |S| to prevent the enemy from escaping
          16. To quietly take out an enemy, press |T| to grab them when they are unaware of you When you feel safe, hold |S| to start the stealth kill
          17. Stay crouched and move slowly to avoid being heard
          18. Stealth tutorial completed
          19. The enemy broke free! Try again You've been spotted! Resetting

             

      This was taken from http://pastebin.com/66Xud0fx
      These were strings that Fadi pulled out from GOW:A. You're simplifying the melee in TLOU a bit too much. What you said MAY be true for the Infected, but it's completely different for human survivors. The melee will be completely different than what is in Uncharted. And for the better.
       

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Sackboy
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Re: Melee Combat - The pax east footage

[ Edited ]
Mar 26, 2013

Thanks, Yem.

 

I can actually see this working, based on the footage available. But the defense would serve only to stop an enemy's combo. I don't think you can defend against a clicker that gets near you.

 

Maybe you can defend against the first attack of a enemy, if you're in a head-on situation; but that would probably be pointless, since Joel's attack would have the priority (at least, it does against the runners). It woud just make the whole thing slower, which is bad for you.

 

So, the defense would be used after you take a hit that doesn't stun you and your enemy attacks you again. If a hit stuns you, your enemy can grab you without giving you a chance to defend the grab... and he will do some extra damage (the guy who gets shot in the face in the E3 demo).

 

When you get approached by an enemy while you're busy attacking his pal, you can't defend the first attack. That's what it looks like and what I'm hoping for.

 

So, the defense button is not a big deal. Knowing when to press it would be very obvious (it could as well be the same as the attack button, pretty much :mantongue: ).

 

However, using this secondary button (triangle), to grab an enemy who is stunned, will be a big deal. I was dubious about that and I'm glad that it seems like it's gonna be like this.

____________________

 

@ Rogue_Eagle

 

Man, I think this thing is very different from Uncharted, because in Uncharted you always have a chance to defend. If you're finishing one guy, and another one attack, you will still be able to defend it (counter it), without taking any damage.

 

In TLOU, you're bound to take damage if you try to melee a group of enemies. To me, that's a radical difference. It's what gives most of the survival vibe to the game.

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Lombax Warrior
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Re: Melee Combat - The pax east footage

Mar 27, 2013

Alright, I mean, I respect everyone's take on the combat, I just reeeeaally think you guys are missing the mark on this. For me, I'm excited about how many contextual things have been implemented and how intelligent the AI will be. I am nearly positive that all attacks will be done with square, triangle, and circle like in Uncharted, just like in Uncharted, but greatly refined and have more variables. However, it seems I'm a minority in thinking this. 

 

It seems to me like it's the same cinematic gameplay that Uncharted has, and it's what ND is known for. I'm excited for it, but not for the reasons you guys are talking about. So, all in all, we're interrpretating the combat different. No biggie, I just hope it doesn't disappoint you guys, because I honestly think you're complicating it way to much and making it grander than what I really think it will be. I just think it will be more cinematic, but just as simplistic albiet a few more variables in terms of contextual programming. 

 

But that's just me.

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Hekseville Citizen
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Re: Melee Combat - The pax east footage

Mar 27, 2013

@plaZeHD7 

Did you play the demo at PAX?

Be yourself; everyone else is already taken. - Oscar Wilde
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