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Treasure Hunter
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Re: Multiplayer Melee Thread

Jan 13, 2013

AKyemeni wrote:

SLEAZE_IT_UP wrote:

Whatever NDI does, at least for the COMP MP, DON'T let stupid things like "Wack and Roll" get in the way of the melee system.  Make it a last resort, not THE ONLY RESORT. 

 

One time, for christsakes! 


We don't even know if there is a roll button lol.


Let's hope not!

 

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Hekseville Citizen
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Re: Multiplayer Melee Thread

Jan 15, 2013

I agree with this thread, melee should have a huge role in multiplayer, probably 85% - 90% precent of it. Ammo for guns should be very limited. I really hope ND reads these posts, so I won't have to worry about being shot in the back every time I'm in a melee fight :smileyfrustrated:


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Naughty Host
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Re: Multiplayer Melee Thread

Apr 3, 2013

Anybody have any input?

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Sackboy
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Re: Multiplayer Melee Thread

[ Edited ]
Apr 4, 2013

I do.

 

Thanks for bringing some attention to this subject, Yem. It is the thing in which I am most interested.

 

Firstly, let me comment your proposal.

 

I liked the rule of friendly fire in case of human shield even when there is no friendly fire on the game. I'd like an option for friendly fire in general, too, however; with a kick feature that is easy in the interface, to prevent trolling.

 

I think jabs and strong attacks would be non-viable to apply - also unecessary. The gameplay can be smart without these different types of attack. TLOU isn't a 1vs1 fight game.

 

I think the following statements are contradictory:

 

"* For the shield to escape this position, the player must enter a random sequence of buttons that appear on top of the screen.

 

* Absolutely, positively, NO QUICK TIME EVENTS of any kind! We don't need these gimmicks and we certainly don't want melee to be judged by people's internet connections, which brings me to my next and final point..."

 

Entering random sequences of buttons is QTE. I simple mash would be less bad. Only stick commands, like circling or side to side can be worse than QTE. I think MGO is a horrible reference for melee. They tried to make it complex, but ended up adding some cheap mechanics and also making the conflict look ridiculous.

_________________________________________________________________

_________________________________________________________________

 

BASIC AC RULES

 

Have you played Assassin's Creed MPs? They use one key feature that makes the melee work well and not suffer much from lag. They make the context decide the outcome. In detail, this is happens by two rules:

 

* Buffing: If you're executing a melee attack on someone and a 3rd guy approaches you and attack you, this third guy's attack will be buffed and have priority over any attempt from you to attack him. Splinter Cell Conviction did not have this rule and sucked.

 

* Head-On Window: Please, forgive the akward name I came up with. Well, these rule is about minimizing the effect of lag. If two enemies try to attack eachother roughly at the same time, it is considered that they attacked simultaneously. The result is then decided by context. In AC, it is about who is the pursuer and who is the target. In TLOU, it could be about who has the better weapon.

________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________

 

ANTICIPATED TLOU RULES

 

If TLOU has these rules from AC3, the melee can work quite well, despite lag. However, in AC, it is always a one-hit-kill. In TLOU, I think it would be quite different, even if the basic two rules are the same. Here is how I picture things working on TLOUs MP:

 

In a Head-On conflict:

 

* The character with the better weapon hits first. Then, there would be an specific number of hits that he can perform in a row, that his opponent cannot defend, a combo (I think there was something about a combo in fadi stuff). After this combo, his opponent is able to defend thee next attack (with triangle).

 

* After the defense, the victim can start a combo of his own (and then, the same rules would be applied), or get a head start in running away.

 

* If the a guy doesn't attack beyond his combo, his opponent will still have the priority to attack him - and would do it qicker, because he would need to spend time defending himself. It could be determined, though, that not going beyond your combo would allow you grant you a head start in running away, before your victim can start his combo on you. But this would be problematic, as it could generate a strategy of hit run and hit, in which a guy with a better weapon could win a seires of head-on confrontations (against the same enemy) without taking damage. This could end up being considered an exploit, or could be OK. The idea would be that you cannot even damage a guy head-on, if he has a better weapon than you. You will just get damaged and eventually killed, if you try it. But if back is on the way, this could benefit your team, as the hit run hit would take quite while to kill you.

 

* The stun could happen when a character reaches low health. Then he can be finished or grabbed. There could be boosters about stun. Stuff like stunning a guy even if your attack doesn't get his health so low, or not being stunned unless your health gets super low.

 

* If both characters have the same weapon and boosters and whatnot, they just beat eachother virtually simultaneously, exchanging blows. The combo rules would also apply in this case. If they have the same combo length (if a guy doesn't have a combo boost that the other doesn't), a player who evades the following attack will gain the advantage and be able to land his own combo (without another exchange of blows). If both try to defend, the characters just hesitate. Then they may try to run away or resume exchanging blows again.

 

* Now, consider the buffing rule. A 3rd guy can intercept your combo at any attack. And he can also attack you after you evade, before you can return fire on his pal. So, even with a better weapon, you would have pretty much no chance on a 2vs1 situation, unless you one-hit-kill one guy on the first contact.

 

Good Approach Attacks:

 

* In a good approach there would be a bonus damage.  With this multiplier, it could be quite viable to kill your enemy in one combo, not giving him a chance to damage you or running away.

 

* Attacking an opponent who is staggered by a thrown object would be a good approach.

 

* Attacking an opponent who is not trying to attack you, too, would be a good approach (as it wouldn't be a head-on situation). If he isn't trying to attack you, too, he is probably not aware of you. The over the shoulder camera should allow for this to happen frequently enough, with side attacks, or even from-corner attacks against the most careless.

 

* Buffing attacks against an enemy who is interacting with someone else could also be considered a good approach (the 3rd guy situation).

 

* Maybe there should be boosters to increase the multiplier (from x2 to x3, for instance).There could be Boosters also to determine what is a bonus attack and what is not. Maybe the 3rd guy bonus should only apply if you have a booster for it, for instance.

 

The Grab:

 

* You can only grab an enemy if he is stunned, or if you approach him from behind. I disagree that you should need to stun him before a grab, if you approach from behind.

 

* You can choke or shiv him, just like in SP. No chance for him to escape. You can also finish him by beating him with a handgun, which would be faster than choking, but loud.

 

* You can hold him and drag him. If you have a handgun, this may work as a human shield.

 

* You can only hold and drag him for a certain time, preferably displayed in a bar. Aiming, could make this bar decrease faster. And there could also be a woble in your aim. And there could be boosters for these things, to increase the time or decrease the woble.

 

* There could be some mashing involved in the speed of the bar's depletion (though I'd prefer not), but there should be a low cap for it, so that mashing very fast would not grant advantages. Such an advantage would be a very dumb mechanic. The mashing, if present, should be about making the controls feel a bit like the action... a cute thingy that's not very important.
________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________

 

ANALOGY WITH TLOU SP

 

These anticipated rules are very much based on what I saw of the single player and somewhat based on fadi's info. The SP footage shown so far seems to works like this. Except:

 

* Until now, it seems Joel can evade the second attack of any enemy, if he is not stunned or killed by the first. Essentially, the enemies seem to have only 1 hit combos, which is pretty much the same as the enemies having no combos at all.

 

* Joel has essentially infinite combos. Even if visually, his combo seems to end before the enemy is stunned or killed, the enemy doesn't counter him if he keeps attacking.

 

* Joel can escape grabs, though some grabs may damage him (E3 shotgun victim). If an ally is helps him, the grab can end sooner (Ellie in E3 and Bill on the Red Band trailer).

 

* The stun doesn't seem to depend on low health in the SP. I hope that it depends on low health on the MP, as I mentioned above; but it's just a guess.

 

Sorry for the length.

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Naughty Host
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Re: Multiplayer Melee Thread

Apr 4, 2013

Solid_Altair wrote:

I do.

 

Thanks for bringing some attention to this subject, Yem. It is the thing in which I am most interested.

 

Firstly, let me comment your proposal.

 

I liked the rule of friendly fire in case of human shield even when there is no friendly fire on the game. I'd like an option for friendly fire in general, too, however; with a kick feature that is easy in the interface, to prevent trolling.

 

I think jabs and strong attacks would be non-viable to apply - also unecessary. The gameplay can be smart without these different types of attack. TLOU isn't a 1vs1 fight game.

 

I think the following statements are contradictory:

 

"* For the shield to escape this position, the player must enter a random sequence of buttons that appear on top of the screen.

 

* Absolutely, positively, NO QUICK TIME EVENTS of any kind! We don't need these gimmicks and we certainly don't want melee to be judged by people's internet connections, which brings me to my next and final point..."

 

Entering random sequences of buttons is QTE. I simple mash would be less bad. Only stick commands, like circling or side to side can be worse than QTE. I think MGO is a horrible reference for melee. They tried to make it complex, but ended up adding some cheap mechanics and also making the conflict look ridiculous.

_________________________________________________________________

_________________________________________________________________

 

BASIC AC RULES

 

Have you played Assassin's Creed MPs? They use one key feature that makes the melee work well and not suffer much from lag. They make the context decide the outcome. In detail, this is happens by two rules:

 

* Buffing: If you're executing a melee attack on someone and a 3rd guy approaches you and attack you, this third guy's attack will be buffed and have priority over any attempt from you to attack him. Splinter Cell Conviction did not have this rule and sucked.

 

* Head-On Window: Please, forgive the akward name I came up with. Well, these rule is about minimizing the effect of lag. If two enemies try to attack eachother roughly at the same time, it is considered that they attacked simultaneously. The result is then decided by context. In AC, it is about who is the pursuer and who is the target. In TLOU, it could be about who has the better weapon.

________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________

 

ANTICIPATED TLOU RULES

 

If TLOU has these rules from AC3, the melee can work quite well, despite lag. However, in AC, it is always a one-hit-kill. In TLOU, I think it would be quite different, even if the basic two rules are the same. Here is how I picture things working on TLOUs MP:

 

In a Head-On conflict:

 

* The character with the better weapon hits first. Then, there would be an specific number of hits that he can perform in a row, that his opponent cannot defend, a combo (I think there was something about a combo in fadi stuff). After this combo, his opponent is able to defend thee next attack (with triangle).

 

* After the defense, the victim can start a combo of his own (and then, the same rules would be applied), or get a head start in running away.

 

* If the a guy doesn't attack beyond his combo, his opponent will still have the priority to attack him - and would do it qicker, because he would need to spend time defending himself. It could be determined, though, that not going beyond your combo would allow you grant you a head start in running away, before your victim can start his combo on you. But this would be problematic, as it could generate a strategy of hit run and hit, in which a guy with a better weapon could win a seires of head-on confrontations (against the same enemy) without taking damage. This could end up being considered an exploit, or could be OK. The idea would be that you cannot even damage a guy head-on, if he has a better weapon than you. You will just get damaged and eventually killed, if you try it. But if back is on the way, this could benefit your team, as the hit run hit would take quite while to kill you.

 

* The stun could happen when a character reaches low health. Then he can be finished or grabbed. There could be boosters about stun. Stuff like stunning a guy even if your attack doesn't get his health so low, or not being stunned unless your health gets super low.

 

* If both characters have the same weapon and boosters and whatnot, they just beat eachother virtually simultaneously, exchanging blows. The combo rules would also apply in this case. If they have the same combo length (if a guy doesn't have a combo boost that the other doesn't), a player who evades the following attack will gain the advantage and be able to land his own combo (without another exchange of blows). If both try to defend, the characters just hesitate. Then they may try to run away or resume exchanging blows again.

 

* Now, consider the buffing rule. A 3rd guy can intercept your combo at any attack. And he can also attack you after you evade, before you can return fire on his pal. So, even with a better weapon, you would have pretty much no chance on a 2vs1 situation, unless you one-hit-kill one guy on the first contact.

 

Good Approach Attacks:

 

* In a good approach there would be a bonus damage.  With this multiplier, it could be quite viable to kill your enemy in one combo, not giving him a chance to damage you or running away.

 

* Attacking an opponent who is staggered by a thrown object would be a good approach.

 

* Attacking an opponent who is not trying to attack you, too, would be a good approach (as it wouldn't be a head-on situation). If he isn't trying to attack you, too, he is probably not aware of you. The over the shoulder camera should allow for this to happen frequently enough, with side attacks, or even from-corner attacks against the most careless.

 

* Buffing attacks against an enemy who is interacting with someone else could also be considered a good approach (the 3rd guy situation).

 

* Maybe there should be boosters to increase the multiplier (from x2 to x3, for instance).There could be Boosters also to determine what is a bonus attack and what is not. Maybe the 3rd guy bonus should only apply if you have a booster for it, for instance.

 

The Grab:

 

* You can only grab an enemy if he is stunned, or if you approach him from behind. I disagree that you should need to stun him before a grab, if you approach from behind.

 

* You can choke or shiv him, just like in SP. No chance for him to escape. You can also finish him by beating him with a handgun, which would be faster than choking, but loud.

 

* You can hold him and drag him. If you have a handgun, this may work as a human shield.

 

* You can only hold and drag him for a certain time, preferably displayed in a bar. Aiming, could make this bar decrease faster. And there could also be a woble in your aim. And there could be boosters for these things, to increase the time or decrease the woble.

 

* There could be some mashing involved in the speed of the bar's depletion (though I'd prefer not), but there should be a low cap for it, so that mashing very fast would not grant advantages. Such an advantage would be a very dumb mechanic. The mashing, if present, should be about making the controls feel a bit like the action... a cute thingy that's not very important.
________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________

 

ANALOGY WITH TLOU SP

 

These anticipated rules are very much based on what I saw of the single player and somewhat based on fadi's info. The SP footage shown so far seems to works like this. Except:

 

* Until now, it seems Joel can evade the second attack of any enemy, if he is not stunned or killed by the first. Essentially, the enemies seem to have only 1 hit combos, which is pretty much the same as the enemies having no combos at all.

 

* Joel has essentially infinite combos. Even if visually, his combo seems to end before the enemy is stunned or killed, the enemy doesn't counter him if he keeps attacking.

 

* Joel can escape grabs, though some grabs may damage him (E3 shotgun victim). If an ally is helps him, the grab can end sooner (Ellie in E3 and Bill on the Red Band trailer).

 

* The stun doesn't seem to depend on low health in the SP. I hope that it depends on low health on the MP, as I mentioned above; but it's just a guess.

 

Sorry for the length.


I think that in the single player you can evade the first hit, but just that a QTE won't appear, you have to remember to press triangle and you have to have good reflexes, hence the fact he got the jump on you. I think they let them hit Joel to make the fights more interesting.

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Sackboy
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Re: Multiplayer Melee Thread

Apr 5, 2013

If the attack is buffed (if Joel was interacting with someone else), then I really hope Joel can't defend. Otherwise things would get too easy.

 

If Joel goes head-on, then yes, maybe the 1st hit could be defended, but that would only be relevant if Joel wouldn't have the 'initiative'. From the PAX footage, Joel has the initiative against the Runners (even when barehanded, I think). When having the initiative, attacking first would be quicker.

 

I hope he cannot defend against the Clicker.

 

And I wonder if it will be possible to grab and shiv a Clicker after stunning him with an awesome melee weapon; or if he is trully essentially imune to melee and would not be stunned by it.

 

 

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: Multiplayer Melee Thread

[ Edited ]
Apr 5, 2013

NO AUTOMATIC TARGET/AIM-GUARANTEED HIT MELEE.

 

That's all I ask.

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Sackboy
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Re: Multiplayer Melee Thread

Apr 5, 2013

^

 

What do you mean by that? You want people to aim their melee in a proper angle and range? In teh pax footage, I saw Joel whiffing a strike. I guess this is a sign that you gotta 'aim' your strikes.

 

I actually don't mind. In a game like this, managing the range is usually a trivial task. I wouldn't mind if they'd have some auto range function to make things fit and look better. AC3 had it and I think it was a good feature. You can hold teh attack button then run towards someone, so Connor attacks as soon as he gets in range. Looks good and doesn't hurt the gameplay, imo.

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