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Jul 08 2013
By: Jovencitogringo Splicer 69 posts
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Radical discussion about Joel. Spoiler and ruiner warning.

45 replies 6542 views Edited Jul 8, 2013

Please don't continue unless you already finished the game and are done playing it for awile; don't want to spoil or ruin your fun.

 

JOEL IS THE MAIN VILLIAN.

 

Yes, this sounds very radical but hear me out.

 

 

1. In the begging Tommy wants to stop and rescue an unaffected family; Joel harshingly orders him not to.

 

2.  He savagely hunts down Robert and watches Tess murder him with no remorse.

 

3..  Ellie asking him if he's ever smuggled before, he did; the only reason you need to smuggle is if it were illegal, and at what end would you do to do it?

 

4.  Tommy, he's own brother the "good man" telling him that he never wants to see his face again.  Why? Tommy is the heroin character.

 

5.  Marlene stating they can just sneak by, but points out that that's not Joel's style.

 

6.  Ellie asking how he knew the Pittsburgh bounty hunters were an ambush... Joel replying that he was one of them.  Did he do anything?  No reply.

 

7.  Interrogation of Ellie's kidnappers; they were tied up,  I guess this is controversial whether or not he needed to kill them.

 

 

The main irony of the whole game is none of these points clearly prove Joel is a villain; everything is questionable.  All until the end..................

 

The decision that Joel makes will determine whether he's a hero, or just like every other character he encountered and killed: out to fulfill his own will at the sacrifice of others.

 

With the loss of his daughter at the beginning of the game we see a never ending internal struggle: has he learn to accept loss?  That for the world to survive people will need to sacrifice, even if it comes down to their own-selves, for the greater good.  Tommy is the Utopian character who really demonstrates this: going against his wife's wishes, sacrificing himself and his colony, to help out his brother and the mysterious  girl.  Joel, for the very few times he decides for the greater good, recognizes that his sister in law's wishes are more important that his, and tells his brother to return.

 

OK, the ending.  He can choose to lose the "adoptive daughter" he could never have to save all humanity, or decide to fulfill his own will: that having Ellie with him is more important than all humanity.  I think how he overcomes the eternal conflict of losing his daughter could make him the hero or the villain: Joel has to learn to accept loss, or even sacrifice for the greater good.

 

His decision was very striking, the irony just pounding, that this whole time I was really playing the villain.  What I mean is a hero is set apart by sacrificing for the greater good, while all humanity just looks out for themselves.  Whereas the villain will desecrate the greater good to accomplish his means.  Joel gunning down an entire hospital in search for a cure. all for just what he wants: to not lose a (adoptive) daughter a second time.

 

 

 

Even more striking as we hear the mp3 voice recordings.  How Marlene is everly dreading and crying over the girl.  She absolutely does not want to do it, but she recognizes that the salvation of mankind is more important than her attachment of her (adoptive daughter).  Adding even more fuel, is how she keeps regretting the terrible decision of giving her over to those 2 "smugglers", had she just kept the girl with her???????  The dramatic irony is that we are Joel bounty hunting her final cause.  Joel has turned out to be far more dangerous than "that side of the city".  Quite a contrast from his "good" brother.  Tommy was over trusting by telling Marlene to rely on him.

 

8.  Joel slaughters an unarmed surgeon, and cold bloodely kills Marlene, his only reason being that she will just keep searching for her.  Now, she was Ellie's adoptive mother, who raised her from youth on.  Ellie loved her so much that she almost killed Joel in the beginning.  She made it this far, and may have been able to find another solution.  None of that mattered to Joel.

 

9.  He lies to Ellie.  Not so much that Ellie can;t take the truth, but more so because he will even break all integrity to not lose Ellie.

 

The ominous sequel,..

 

Now, Ellie knows something is defiantly fishy, but does not know all the details.  She's going to eventually find out everything.....

 

Tommy's camp is a safe haven, but when the Fireflys get wind of where he is?????  How much will his own brother tolerate his bother's lies?  Will he sacrifice his camp just so Joel can have his adoptive daughter??

 

What about the infected?  It seems that the fungus can keep its host alive until they become bloaters.  The fungus doesn't stop growing, what will really be the final maturity of the fungal growth?????????

 

It seams like the whole world is going to turn on Joel and he will be left all alone to fend for himself.  There is going to have to be a compromise that he will have to make keep Ellie: find a cure while keeping her alive.  Ellie is a good person, and she cannot just sit back and watch humanity destroy themselves when she knows she can save the world.  To keep Ellie he will have to find and fight for this.

 

Yes, a very ominous sequel, but the ironic thing is I think that's exactly what the players want: a really extreme sequel.  By giving us a sad ending, I really don't think it's a ending at all, rather one of the biggest "to be continued" scenarios in all video game history; so many things are ominously waiting to be answered.

 

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Sackboy
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Re: Radical discussion about Joel. Spoiler and ruiner warning.

Jul 8, 2013

Well, Joel obviously wasn't a hero and that's something people should understand before complaining about the decision Joel made in the end.

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Lombax Warrior
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Re: Radical discussion about Joel. Spoiler and ruiner warning.

[ Edited ]
Jul 8, 2013

Jovencitogringo wrote:

Please don't continue unless you already finished the game and are done playing it for awile; don't want to spoil or ruin your fun.

 

JOEL IS THE MAIN VILLIAN.

 

He is neither a hero nor a villian. He is Joel. In The Last of Us, there are no heroes or villians.

 

Yes, this sounds very radical but hear me out.

 

1. In the begging Tommy wants to stop and rescue an unaffected family; Joel harshingly orders him not to.

 

Yeah this part was a little harsh, but it's hard to say it was the wrong decision. What if they were sick?

 

2.  He savagely hunts down Robert and watches Tess murder him with no remorse.

 

At this point in the story, he is a cold blooded killer. In the cruel post-pandemic world, it's the only thing you can be to survive.

 

3..  Ellie asking him if he's ever smuggled before, he did; the only reason you need to smuggle is if it were illegal, and at what end would you do to do it?

 

It doesn't have to neccessarily be illegal to be smuggled out of the quarintine zone. They don't want anyone outside of the quarintine zone so illegal items or not, the act of smuggling is illegal. This doesn't make him a bad person, per se.

 

4.  Tommy, he's own brother the "good man" telling him that he never wants to see his face again.  Why? Tommy is the heroin character.

 

This one is a horrible argument. The reason Tommy never wanted to see his face again is because Joel expressed his 'hatred', for lack of a better term, towards the Fireflies and what they stood for. Remember, Joel is doing everything in his power to survive. He doesn't like the idea of some righteous group of rebels being pseudo-terrorists.

 

5.  Marlene stating they can just sneak by, but points out that that's not Joel's style.

 

Again, at this point in the story Joel is a cold blooded killer because it's almost a neccessity to survive in the world's current state.

 

6.  Ellie asking how he knew the Pittsburgh bounty hunters were an ambush... Joel replying that he was one of them.  Did he do anything?  No reply.

 

Joel and Ellie hadn't yet developed the Father-Daughter like relationship. Ellie was still 'cargo' during this scene and seeing as his past was an extremelly touchy subject that he never really shared with anyone, he avoided further conversation.

 

7.  Interrogation of Ellie's kidnappers; they were tied up,  I guess this is controversial whether or not he needed to kill them.

 

Joel is on a mission to rescue Ellie. He will do anything and everything in his power to save her. If it requires a bit of 'forceful interrogation', so be it.

 

8.  Joel slaughters an unarmed surgeon, and cold bloodely kills Marlene, his only reason being that she will just keep searching for her.  Now, she was Ellie's adoptive mother, who raised her from youth on.  Ellie loved her so much that she almost killed Joel in the beginning.  She made it this far, and may have been able to find another solution.  None of that mattered to Joel.

 

Again, Joel is on a mission to rescue Ellie. Of course it didn't matter to Joel. Joel loved Ellie like the daughter he once had, and in his mind, Ellie was Sarah. Granted, he probably didn't need to kill him and could have just grabbed and threw him across the room, but as Marlene had said previously, that's not Joel's style.

 

9.  He lies to Ellie.  Not so much that Ellie can;t take the truth, but more so because he will even break all integrity to not lose Ellie.

 

He lied because it was the only thing that would prevent Ellie from despising him as a person. He lied knowing that she might just find out, but that is a risk Joel was very willing to take as long as it meant Ellie would stay with him.

 


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Wastelander
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Re: Radical discussion about Joel. Spoiler and ruiner warning.

Jul 8, 2013

No, he is a SURVIVOR.

 

It is over, Jovencitogringo.

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Splicer
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Re: Radical discussion about Joel. Spoiler and ruiner warning.

Jul 8, 2013

Just want to remind everyone that I do define this as a "radical viewpoint' meaning that I havn't necessarly proven this yet; the truth is still yet to be found.

 

Now, clearly, Joel is not a hero; no argument.

 

Whether or not he is a survivor is debatable.  Debatable becuase: is "survivor" just a euphenism for being just like everyone else?

 

To be a villian you have to be worse than the average person.  Now, lets take one of the main villians in the game for instance: the pedofile rapist (David, I think).  Everything he did to help Ellie was most likely hipocritical: all just a show becuase he was secretly in love with a 14 year old girl.

 

But one of the things that made him a villian was a quote that he said to Ellie about "we doing all that it takes to survive" (paraphrase, don't quote me on this).  We later furgure out that what he means is cannabalism and killing your enemies at all cost.  Yes, he did want to conjole Ellie into turning with him, but just to satisfy his own wicked desires; not necesarily in an effort to save a young girl.  Now that she wouldn't do it, he tries to rape and possibly kill her.

David was out to accomplish his own desires and willing to destroy everything that gets in his way: even the girl he wrongly fell in love with.

 

Now, Joel has in no way the same wicked desires as the rapist cannabal, but he is out to accomplish his own desires and willing to destroy anything that gets in his way, however more understanding his motives are.

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Hekseville Citizen
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Re: Radical discussion about Joel. Spoiler and ruiner warning.

Jul 8, 2013
I just love the fact that we can talk about a game like this. Since when has that happened? Usually games are predictable and simple.

I think there are no good guys and there are no bad guys. Which is what makes this story special. No character did bad things just cus they are bad. Yes if you look at the whole story and all the characters as a whole you can say Joel is "bad". But if you put yourself in his shoes or any characters shoes you'll notice that they made all their decisions based on their own morals, situations, and pasts.
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Lombax Warrior
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Re: Radical discussion about Joel. Spoiler and ruiner warning.

Jul 8, 2013

Jovencitogringo wrote:

Just want to remind everyone that I do define this as a "radical viewpoint' meaning that I havn't necessarly proven this yet; the truth is still yet to be found.

 

Now, clearly, Joel is not a hero; no argument.

 

Whether or not he is a survivor is debatable.  Debatable becuase: is "survivor" just a euphenism for being just like everyone else?

 

To be a villian you have to be worse than the average person.  Now, lets take one of the main villians in the game for instance: the pedofile rapist (David, I think).  Everything he did to help Ellie was most likely hipocritical: all just a show becuase he was secretly in love with a 14 year old girl.

 

But one of the things that made him a villian was a quote that he said to Ellie about "we doing all that it takes to survive" (paraphrase, don't quote me on this).  We later furgure out that what he means is cannabalism and killing your enemies at all cost.  Yes, he did want to conjole Ellie into turning with him, but just to satisfy his own wicked desires; not necesarily in an effort to save a young girl.  Now that she wouldn't do it, he tries to rape and possibly kill her.

David was out to accomplish his own desires and willing to destroy everything that gets in his way: even the girl he wrongly fell in love with.

 

Now, Joel has in no way the same wicked desires as the rapist cannabal, but he is out to accomplish his own desires and willing to destroy anything that gets in his way, however more understanding his motives are.


That doesn't make anyone a villian.

 

You're missing the point. Everyone in the world of The Last of Us will do anything to "accomplish their desires" as you like to put it. They are doing anything they possibly can to survive the harsh world. Tommy will do anything to make sure his settlement is safe. Joel will do anything to make sure Ellie is safe. David will do anyting to make sure his clan survives. 

 

Again, there aren't any villians, heroes, anti-heroes, whatever. There are simply survivors.

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Splicer
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Re: Radical discussion about Joel. Spoiler and ruiner warning.

Jul 8, 2013
Not trying to argue, but Marlene clearly battled with herself to give up Ellie to the greater cause. Not something she wanted to do, but she did it for humanity. This will put her in the status to possible be a hero.
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Splicer
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Re: Radical discussion about Joel. Spoiler and ruiner warning.

Jul 8, 2013
And 2. By helping out his brother, how was Tommy helping out his settlement? And even Bill: the least likely person to even want to call himself a hero: what did he have to gain by helping Joel out? Owing somebody... Clearly his morals and integrity were more important than his own life and well being. Yes, even Bill can be a hero.
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Hekseville Citizen
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Re: Radical discussion about Joel. Spoiler and ruiner warning.

Jul 8, 2013

MAIN VILLIAN?!?! BWUAHAHAHA. Another person looking at the characters in our society's morality. This is TWENTY YEARS after the initial outbreak. This is a post-apocalyptic world. Any "good" guys are either dead or infected. The rest left alive are SURVIVORS. Hero? Villian? They don't exist. Only survivors. You think WAY to black and white. This world is full of grey, and grey ONLY. The ending was perfect. It portrayed Ellie and Joel in the accurate, human, and realistic way possible.

When all have fallen, rise above the ashes.
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