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Lombax Warrior
Registered: 06/26/2013
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Re: STOP SAYING THAT ELLIE WOULD HAVE ...

Jun 29, 2013

Seriously the quicker people realise that the question about the fireflies and Joel lying to her  was all a blatant set up for a sequel then we can end these threads and head scratching and talk about better **bleep** like for example WHY THE **bleep** ARE THERE ONLY 2 GAME MODES IN MP (and DONT give me **bleep** about them 'adding DLC' thats BS i didnt pay for half a multiplayer experience i want the full shabang, **bleep** ND adding bloody coop? COOP! in DLC? **bleep**! anyway got side tracked there)

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Wastelander
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Re: ***SPOILERS *** STOP SAYING THAT ELLIE WOULD HAVE ...

[ Edited ]
Jun 29, 2013

mani60cent wrote:
@LikeRA1N.

I think the main reason Joel lied to her was because he killed Marlene and half of the fireflies, Who Ellie trusted most, If Ellie wanted to die I think she would have wanted to go back to the hospital where Marlene was to say "hi" after she woke up but instead she just chose to stay with Joel. Why would she want to stay with someone who she has only known for a year then with someone she has known since she was little? Simple, because she knew Joel cared about her more and that something had happened with Marlene.

You said nothing about why she brought up Riley, Sam and Tess. She also says in the ending scene, "I'm still waiting on my turn." Joel tells her to keep finding something to fight for. The WHOLE journey, she was fighting for the cure. You think she would have passed it up once she found out what needed to be done?

 

Joel lied to her because he killed Marlene? What?! If Joel would have told the truth and said "Look, baby girl, the Fireflies had to kill you for the cure," that wouldn't have suggested that he killed Marlene. That's not a valid point at all.

 

I read somewhere from an older gamer who said a lot of people won't have the mental capacity to appreciate this game and all that it offers from beginning to the very end. This is a fine example of what he meant.

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Lombax Warrior
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Re: ***SPOILERS *** STOP SAYING THAT ELLIE WOULD HAVE ...

[ Edited ]
Jun 29, 2013

**bleep** cheers for ignoring my post and questions.. Coward.

Also mental capacity? Alright Richard Dawkins enlighten us give us more facts other than stating that a guilt ridden 14 year old girl feels guilty....

 

Also I LOVE when people say

"Oh well he coulda just said this, or coulda just done that"

 

**bleep** YOUR TALKING FROM A 3RD PERSPECTIVE you dont have ANY pressure on you WHATSOEVER. How many times in your life do you LOOK BACK at things and say oh i coulda done this better. Like I said Joel is irrational, got put on the spot AND DIDNT WANT TO RISK **bleep** IT UP WITH THE ONLY THING HE FEELS IS WORTH LIVING FOR. soz caps broke at the main points coincidentally

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First Son
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Re: STOP SAYING THAT ELLIE WOULD HAVE ...

Jun 29, 2013

If the fireflies sat down with Ellie and Joel and said "Ellie, the only way to get a vaccine is if we do an operation on you and this will be 100% fatal. You will die" Ellie might have done it anyways. But at the same time, I know that both of them would ask if there wasn't any other way, because she's 14 - just a kid, and she wanted to live. She wanted to be able to swim, tell some bad jokes and spend time with Joel.

Although she has mentioned several times that her purpose was to create this vaccine, and that she is the last hope for humanity. She's been spending the latest year fighting for this and without knowing anything she's now on her way back to Tommy's town.

But is she willing to die for this cause? after all the horrible people she met and almost got killed by, is she willing to sacrifice herself for those? I don't think so.

 

The best thing would be if Joel just told Ellie everything. That she must die to create a vaccine, wich won't help humanity at all anyways, and that he just wanted to make sure she didn't sacrifice herself without knowing. And THEN she could've make up her own mind about it. This is an 14 year old who just lost "the thing she faught for" and Joel tried to tell her that yeah, the cure thingy didn't work out, but no matter what you keep finding something to fight for. I hope that Ellie understood this and said Okay because she trusted joel, even if she knew that he lied.

 

 

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Wastelander
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Re: ***SPOILERS *** STOP SAYING THAT ELLIE WOULD HAVE ...

Jun 29, 2013

EndureNSurvive wrote:

sacrificed herself if she knew Joel was lying. She definitely knew, saying that she didnt know dumbs down the impact of the game&message ND is giving and sh*tting on all of Ellie's character developement. The purpose of the whole last scene was to show that she knew Joel was lying. I believe I wrote a good explanation in another post so i am copying it here too. Feel free to read it if you have a bit of time in your hands because i feel i did a fairly good job explaining the ending:

 

I completely believe that Ellie wouldn't sacrifice herself if she knew the whole thing . And the thing is SHE KNEW THE WHOLE THING AND STILL DIDNT SACRIFICE HERSELF& CHOSE TO LIVE WITH JOEL. People above has aggreed upon the fact that she didn't know she had to die in order to find the vaccine. However some people are saying that she would have sacrificed herself if the fireflies asked her. I believe that this is completely wrong, and if you believe this it takes away from the emotional impact of the end. The whole ending part was suggesting that Ellie knew what she had to do but she refused to do it, just like Joel.

 

Ellie is crazy smart. To survive for that long you have to be smart. She is definitely smarter than the 20 year olds of now. So to suggest that she didnt know Joel was lying is bs. After she wakes up she immediatly realizes that she is wearing a surgery cloth thingy. After that she starts talking about her friends that died. Do you really think that she talks about them just for the giggles. No she understands that something went wrong, she left without changing her clothes, she left without saying her goodbyes to Marlene, who is as close as a mother to her. She certainly knows Joel did something bad to the fireflies otherwise why would have they left in such a hurry after all the effort to come to that place. To suggest that she didnt see through Joel's lies and his shady explanations is ignoring all of ND's efforts to create a mentally and physically strong character in Ellie and also saying that she is dumb. Anyone could have seen through those lies let alone Ellie.

 

She talks about her friends that have died. She tells Joel that she feels guilty because everyone around her dies, and by talking about them she tells Joel that maybe she needs to die, maybe this is the purpose of her life, dying in order to find a cure. And Joel tells her that she will find new things to fight for. That is what he did. And Ellie aggrees with her. She accepts Joel's lies, she CHOOSES to believe him, so that she can be with Joel. And this is why the ending is so powerful. From the start of the game, Joel was never a real hero. He was a damaged guy, who did what he had to do to survive. He even was a hunter once. Just like Tess said, they were **bleep** people. So to see him save Ellie and sacrifice the human race in the process is an understandable thing. It shocks you but still it is understandable. You expect this from a father. However Ellie doing the same thing with Joel is emotionally impactful. If Ellie lived in our world, she would been a sweet sweet kid. But in TLOA's world she is a survivor just like Joel. By choosing to believe his lies, Ellie did what Joel did, she sacrificed humanity. And this is why the ending is very strong. Seeing a kid, who is supposed to be innocent, making the "selfish" decision (in todays societies morality of course, in TLOAs world there are no morals) is the big punchline of the game. By doing this ND gives the message of the game, which is that there are no morals, no selfless decisions in this world, you have to do what you have to do to survive.

 

So i say Joel and Ellie are both selfish, they both chose to sacrifice human race to be with each other. However we cannot judge them and say that they made the right or wrong decision because they live in a completely different reality from us. These are my 2 cents hope it helps someone.


After re-reading your post, it looks like we actually agree on this topic to a point. We both agree Ellie know Joel lied. We both agree that Ellie CHOSE to believe Joel. What I'm getting at is, she would have agreed to sacrifice herself back with the Fireflies. THIS, is why Joel lied to her.

 

I'm sure Ellie had a lot to think about during their ride to the ending scene. She knew Joel lied. And she chose to live. But back in that hospital, if they had told her that she needed to die, she would have.

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Lombax Warrior
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Re: ***SPOILERS *** STOP SAYING THAT ELLIE WOULD HAVE ...

[ Edited ]
Jun 29, 2013
@LikeRA1N

But it's not about the cure! It's about their relationship and how it's so much more important than the cure, Ellie brings up the past people who got infected to give Joel one last chance to tell her the truth, she later on accepts the lie because she wanted to be with Joel and she knew how much he sacrificed for her, him lying to her because he killed Marlene wasn't the main reason why he lied, he obviously didn't want her to get angry at him for killing her mothers best friend.
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Splicer
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Re: ***SPOILERS *** STOP SAYING THAT ELLIE WOULD HAVE ...

[ Edited ]
Jun 29, 2013

@LikeR41N brother the purpose of boards are to find new ideas, and find new perceptions. You consistently ask why did she bring about her friends and why did Joel lied to her. And you also give the link i gave on the first post and say that it proves your point. It doesnt prove neither your point nor mine it just proves that Ellie knows Joel is lying. Anyways @soufdawg gave 5 excellent reasons to you that proves our points. If you dont want to try to see through our perspective and look objectively then i suggest to leave my post because it wont do you any good. We wont change your opinions nor you will change ours. Anyways i suggest you read soufdawgs post.

 

Edit: While writing this I saw that you wrote another answer. I know we aggree on most of the points but you insist that Joel lied because Ellie would have sacrificed herself. If that is the case just tell me why did Ellie didn't ran away or make Joel take her back if she really would have sacrificed her life. Surely she wouldnt say aw screw it, we cant drive for 30 minutes to go back, i guess humanity will die.

 

EDIT 2: OK , now you are saying that at the end she chose to believe Joel's lie after thinking, but at the hospital she would have sacrificed herself. My answer to that is no she would not sacrifice herself because if Marlene asked her if she wanted to sacrifice herself she would think about it a lot and talk with Joel just like the ending Smiley Very Happy You dont expect her to just say yes or no, right. She would definitely going to think about her decision and she would make the same decision. Actually this doesnt matter what she would have done if they were in the hospital, the thing that matters is both Ellie andJoel are not heros, and they do what they have to do.

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Lombax Warrior
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Re: ***SPOILERS *** STOP SAYING THAT ELLIE WOULD HAVE ...

[ Edited ]
Jun 29, 2013

"After re-reading your post, it looks like we actually agree on this topic to a point. We both agree Ellie know Joel lied. We both agree that Ellie CHOSE to believe Joel. What I'm getting at is, she would have agreed to sacrifice herself back with the Fireflies. THIS, is why Joel lied to her.

 

I'm sure Ellie had a lot to think about during their ride to the ending scene. She knew Joel lied. And she chose to live. But back in that hospital, if they had told her that she needed to die, she would have."

 

Dude thats BS how do you know she would have killed herself for a world that has only brought her pain and suffering....

 

Also I am aware of him ignoring my post. Like i have said before I shall repeat myself. Coward. It seems YOU do not have the mental capacity to uphold a debate or comprehend this games ending.

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Lombax Warrior
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Re: ***SPOILERS *** STOP SAYING THAT ELLIE WOULD HAVE ...

[ Edited ]
Jun 29, 2013
The way I see it is that in the beginning Ellie willingly goes in wanting to find the cure, but in the end after all she has seen and been through, after she has seen what the world has become, she accepts Joel's lie in the end and realises the world is not worth saving. And that the relationship that she has made with this man who has done so much for her is more important.
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Wastelander
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Re: ***SPOILERS *** STOP SAYING THAT ELLIE WOULD HAVE ...

Jun 29, 2013

EndureNSurvive wrote:

@LikeR41N brother the purpose of boards are to find new ideas, and find new perceptions. You consistently ask why did she bring about her friends and why did Joel lied to her. And you also give the link i gave on the first post and say that it proves your point. It doesnt prove neither your point nor mine it just proves that Ellie knows Joel is lying. Anyways @soufdawg gave 5 excellent reasons to you that proves our points. If you dont want to try to see through our perspective and look objectively then i suggest to leave my post because it wont do you any good. We wont change your opinions nor you will change ours. Anyways i suggest you read soufdawgs post.

 

Edit: While writing this I saw that you wrote another answer. I know we aggree on most of the points but you insist that Joel lied because Ellie would have sacrificed herself. If that is the case just tell me why did Ellie didn't ran away or make Joel take her back if she really would have sacrificed her life. Surely she wouldnt say aw screw it, we cant drive for 30 minutes to go back, i guess humanity will die.


This is ANOTHER point we agreed on -- she CHOSE to live!

 

This is what I am saying: Ellie would have sacrificed herself back at the hospital. Joel knew this, which is why he lied. She saw through his lie and realized that through everything they'd been through, he'd lie to her to keep her alive. That is all. You understand?

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