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Lombax Warrior
Registered: 07/16/2013
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Re: The Ending is Conclusive

[ Edited ]
Sep 3, 2013

It's a though situation. You guy's are right in the moment where Marlene says that to Joel.

But,

SPOILER (you have been warned)

1 fact, Marlene wasn't that mother-like to Ellie..
(American Dream Comic / Read it - See it)
She never had time for her.

2 however Ellie talked about the dead's she saw.she says, how sad this is terrible and she don't want to end up like this

3 she mentioned to Sam she don't like end up alone.

4 After the Giraffe Scene she says (hope it's so in English, didn't played in English) "If we are done you can decide the next goal/step" or something in this way

5) yes she feels guilty but seriosly, just because a 14/15 yo girl feels guilty she can decide to die (alone)?

That is a heavy punishment isn't it.
Did she killed Rilley, Tess and Sam?
No she didn't and it wasn't her fault.

"So don’t tell us we’d be happy with some other characters/games because the truth is, we’d just be more disappointed." - conquerator3

Status:
❒ single ❒ taken ✔ Joel

TLOU2:
Ellie: I've listen to your lie, and your story. And I can't take it anymore.
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Splicer
Registered: 08/21/2013
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Re: The Ending is Conclusive

Sep 3, 2013

I also don't agree with Ellie wanting to die. In Pittsburgh where Ellie learns to whistle, there is an optional conversation about the military killing civilians. Joel says " They sacrificed the few, to save the many  ". Ellie replies with " That's kinda **bleep** ". This suggests that she doesn't really agree with that line of thinking.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

" Man...I shot the hell outta that guy, huh? " - Ellie (The Last of Us)

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Lombax Warrior
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Re: The Ending is Conclusive

Sep 3, 2013

While I loved the ending it's quite ignorant to say it's conclusive when they cut just as the lie is delivered to Ellie.

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Splicer
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Re: The Ending is Conclusive

Sep 3, 2013

The way i feel is that this franchise doesn't have to focus one a particular set of characters. I loved Joel and Ellie's story and i would also love to see more of them, but I believe that there isn't much more story to tell to make a full single player story. I feel that it would be short enough to be DLC. I think it would be better to have new characters in the possible sequel so we can expand the Last of Us universe. I'm not necessarily saying that they should make something and move on, but to have fresh stories to tell. It can be possible to have the new characters be relative to the old (i.e. friend, family) or have the old be referenced by the new(Joel and Ellie's story being exchanged by people or collect artifacts similar to Ish's story). 

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First Son
Registered: 09/02/2013
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Re: The Ending is Conclusive

Sep 3, 2013

@kleen_nexi, again, I am not saying that Ellie is suicidal or WANTS to die. I am saying that Ellie would be WILLING to die for humanity if given the opportunity. Marlene says this, and more importantly,  Joel DOESN'T disagree with her (thus, agreeing with her), and Ellie affirms it in the end with when she confronts Joel. 

 

@shylNnoVation, the impression I got was that Ellie would be willing to die in order to honor Tess, Sam, and Riley; not that she was heroic at heart. Why else would she bring them up when confronting Joel? Again, there is no evidence not to believe that Ellie would have sacrificed herself. 

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: The Ending is Conclusive

Sep 3, 2013

JazzDynamite wrote:

Well, her choice would have been irrelevant from the start since its a question of saving humanity. The Fireflies didn't give her a choice because they wouldn't let her opinion affect such a goal. The circumstance explains itself.

 

And you are confusing willing to die [for humanity] with wanting to die. 

 

We are given no reason to believe that Ellie would have actually said "no" to being killed for a vaccine. This idea is first presented by Marlene when she says it's what she would want and Joel essentially agrees by not responding. Keep in mind, these two characters know her better than anyone else in the game so we have little reason to doubt them. The last conversation of the game then affirms the idea when Ellie parallels her survivors guilt to her suspicion of Joel. If there was something she could do to make Tess, Sam, and RIley's death not in vain she would do it.


But your still getting into territory of people who "know you best" trying to read into what another person would choose.  You know....I have been married for almost 7 years now.  I know my wife extremely well.  I know her character and how she reacts in certain situations as a general rule....but you know what else.  Several times a week she will still surprise me over the choices that she makes.  There is no more intimate relationship you can have than with a husband/wife but the fact that you can know someone well and yet they will still choose differently than you thought they would tells alot about us.  As humans we can assume alot of things but an assumption does not mean you are correct.  I would agree by the way the story is written I would give a little more weight to Ellie being willing to sacrifice herself than not....but at the same time assuming that I know the answer based on prior experience doesnt mean I actually know what her answer is.......and on top of that we are given many reasons to believe that Ellie would want to live.  Her talk about the future with Joel and what she would like to do/learn........her asking Joel what they would do to make the cure......and many other scenes shows Ellie has a strong desire to live/survive even after the fireflies use her to develop a vaccine.  Ellie is never given a choice and to pretend that she was by assuming what her choice would actually be ends up diminishing the story

 

Your first part about Ellies choice being irrelavent....its so completely wrong.  By arguing this you are attempting to reason out why it would be ethical to murder Ellie.  Your argument is the EXACT same argument that the nazi doctors would use when they tortured jews to death just to try to find the limits of the human bodies endurance.  You know a huge number of our advances in medical care is due to what these Nazi doctors did.  In fact far more people have been saved from death because of their research than they ever killed in obtaining the data.  So knowing this the question is.......did they do the ethical thing?  By your argument that Ellies choice is irrelevant....the lives of those jews are also irrelavent because despite their tortured deaths the data collected will end up saving far far more people.  Attempting to quantify human worth ends up bringing all humans down to a number and as a result you end up with a morality that says if 100 people choose to kill 99 other people because it would benefit them more then they are within their moral grounds to kill them. 

 

 

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Lombax Warrior
Registered: 06/25/2013
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Re: The Ending is Conclusive

Sep 3, 2013

I agree with OP in the sense that a direct sequel would be bad for both this game and the sequel. However my argument is different.

 

What made the story of The Last of Us, was never what they were actually doing (the plot). It was the dynamic between Ellie and Joel and the character development and progression that made it stand out from many other games. And that dynamic very much reached a satisfying conclusion. 

 

So when people are saying stuff like, oh Tommy's camp could get attacked and Fireflys would come looking for Ellie, then I must say that I get a little disappointed. Sure lots of things could happen, but where would that leave the characters? Where do you want to go with the characters personality? You can throw lots and lots of different stuff at the characters. But that was never what made The Last of Us. Where do you want to go with Joel? Make him even more determined to find something worth living for? 

 

The dynamic between Ellie and Joel reached its climax at the end. You better be **bleep** sure about what you are doing if you are going to open that up again. I just hope Druckman will be the writer of the next game, because I think many other people wouldn't understand why this game is good and therefore turn a sequel into something similar to American Psycho 2 (especially going by what some journalists and random people on the internet is suggesting). 

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: The Ending is Conclusive

[ Edited ]
Sep 3, 2013

Following the logic, the story is then not important at all, right?
As long as we keep the dynamic and throw some sort of story in there, we should be fine [ala Uncharted as honestly, the story was not the best yet people still liked it for it's dynamic]
My point is however, that I don't really feel the story has concluded.
Do you?
1]Do you think they will live happily forever after? No, as the infected or hunters will sooner or later attack the camp and break in [they do that even during the game, at the dam.]
The infection will spread and things will inevitably happen
We can get a bit of background about their daily routine and then connect a story to that.
2]Do you really think Ellie eats up that lie? She has proved to be a very clever girl. She knows the truth, she connected the dots.
She is young and she knows she is the cure and if anything, she will try to fix the situation somewhat [finding an alternative cure, perhaps]
3]Do you really believe the game ended a happy ending, rather than a cliffhanger to make place for a sequel?
I don't. The ending is by no means conclusive It is merely speculative.
Time won't stop for years. No, it keeps moving and in that world nothing lasts too long. Infection, factions, ideas, guilt, sadness... Everything spreads.

I know most of the people agree with me, but to those naysayers out there.
Even if [and that is a huge IF] the sequel ends up being bad, how does that diminish the first game?
It doesn't. Uncharted 2 is still thought to be the best Uncharted game. Did Uncharted 3 ruined that somehow? Nope.
It's about the dynamic duo more than the story.
ND can do catchy lines, emotions and experiment. They have all their games based off that.
Is there a valid reason not to want a sequel? I just don't see it. Story is not concluded, characters are not concluded. People ain't happy with the ending. Is there no way to make another installment? Absolutely not.
Sure make a prequel DLC [full game woulda been kinda useless] take your time.
But even if this were to be a trilogy, I am sure it wouldn't ruin anything.
ND are skilled, talented developers. They did not disappoint before. They know their stuff. What makes you think they'd start now?
Sure, don't buy the sequel if you want to, but why wouldn't you?
There is no reason not to. Have some faith in ND guys and if you really LOVED TLoU deep inside, I am sure you wish for a true sequel, with all the bells and whistles that made the game so awesome and even more... It's all out there.

"So don't tell us we'd be happy with some other characters/games because the truth is, we'd just be more disappointed"

 

Also "teamwork" "high five" "yeah"...

Could anyone possibly not want more of this? I just don't get you sometimes. You must be an extinct minority if sanity is to be believed Smiley Very Happy Or passion for games. 

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Lombax Warrior
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Re: The Ending is Conclusive

[ Edited ]
Sep 3, 2013

conquerator3 wrote:


"So don't tell us we'd be happy with some other characters/games because the truth is, we'd just be more disappointed"

 

 


You made me cry

"So don’t tell us we’d be happy with some other characters/games because the truth is, we’d just be more disappointed." - conquerator3

Status:
❒ single ❒ taken ✔ Joel

TLOU2:
Ellie: I've listen to your lie, and your story. And I can't take it anymore.
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Uncharted Territory
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Re: The Ending is Conclusive

Sep 3, 2013
That is a modified Ellie quote, but you are welcome :}
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