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Lombax Warrior
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Re: The Ending is Conclusive

Sep 3, 2013

conquerator3 wrote:
That is a modified Ellie quote, but you are welcome :}

yes i know - and this why i have bad feelings.. : ( everything what you wrote is the f***ing truth. *_*

"So don’t tell us we’d be happy with some other characters/games because the truth is, we’d just be more disappointed." - conquerator3

Status:
❒ single ❒ taken ✔ Joel

TLOU2:
Ellie: I've listen to your lie, and your story. And I can't take it anymore.
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Uncharted Territory
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Re: The Ending is Conclusive

[ Edited ]
Sep 3, 2013

kleen_nexi wrote:

conquerator3 wrote:
That is a modified Ellie quote, but you are welcome :}

yes i know - and this why i have bad feelings.. : ( everything what you wrote is the f***ing truth. *_*


Ow, thank you.

That is what I think though :]

Also greetings from die Tschechische Republic to Germany :]

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Lombax Warrior
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Re: The Ending is Conclusive

Sep 3, 2013

conquerator3 wrote:

kleen_nexi wrote:

conquerator3 wrote:
That is a modified Ellie quote, but you are welcome :}

yes i know - and this why i have bad feelings.. : ( everything what you wrote is the f***ing truth. *_*


Ow, thank you.

That is what I think though :]

Also greetings from die Tschechische Republic to Germany :]


Greetings zurück zur Tschechische  Republik ; )  

sorry for off topic ; ) 

"So don’t tell us we’d be happy with some other characters/games because the truth is, we’d just be more disappointed." - conquerator3

Status:
❒ single ❒ taken ✔ Joel

TLOU2:
Ellie: I've listen to your lie, and your story. And I can't take it anymore.
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Uncharted Territory
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Re: The Ending is Conclusive

[ Edited ]
Sep 3, 2013

kleen_nexi wrote:

conquerator3 wrote:

kleen_nexi wrote:

conquerator3 wrote:
That is a modified Ellie quote, but you are welcome :}

yes i know - and this why i have bad feelings.. : ( everything what you wrote is the f***ing truth. *_*


Ow, thank you.

That is what I think though :]

Also greetings from die Tschechische Republic to Germany :]


Greetings zurück zur Tschechische  Republik ; )  

sorry for off topic ; ) 


My German knowledge is rather basic but...

Das ist in ordnung, Kumpel :]

Definitely English>German language though :] But I get by y'know :smileytongue:

Back OT I guess :]

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First Son
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Re: The Ending is Conclusive

Sep 3, 2013

semper_fi_1999 wrote:

But your still getting into territory of people who "know you best" trying to read into what another person would choose.  You know....I have been married for almost 7 years now.  I know my wife extremely well.  I know her character and how she reacts in certain situations as a general rule....but you know what else.  Several times a week she will still surprise me over the choices that she makes.  There is no more intimate relationship you can have than with a husband/wife but the fact that you can know someone well and yet they will still choose differently than you thought they would tells alot about us.  As humans we can assume alot of things but an assumption does not mean you are correct.  I would agree by the way the story is written I would give a little more weight to Ellie being willing to sacrifice herself than not....but at the same time assuming that I know the answer based on prior experience doesnt mean I actually know what her answer is.......and on top of that we are given many reasons to believe that Ellie would want to live.  Her talk about the future with Joel and what she would like to do/learn........her asking Joel what they would do to make the cure......and many other scenes shows Ellie has a strong desire to live/survive even after the fireflies use her to develop a vaccine.  Ellie is never given a choice and to pretend that she was by assuming what her choice would actually be ends up diminishing the story

 

Your first part about Ellies choice being irrelavent....its so completely wrong.  By arguing this you are attempting to reason out why it would be ethical to murder Ellie.  Your argument is the EXACT same argument that the nazi doctors would use when they tortured jews to death just to try to find the limits of the human bodies endurance.  You know a huge number of our advances in medical care is due to what these Nazi doctors did.  In fact far more people have been saved from death because of their research than they ever killed in obtaining the data.  So knowing this the question is.......did they do the ethical thing?  By your argument that Ellies choice is irrelevant....the lives of those jews are also irrelavent because despite their tortured deaths the data collected will end up saving far far more people.  Attempting to quantify human worth ends up bringing all humans down to a number and as a result you end up with a morality that says if 100 people choose to kill 99 other people because it would benefit them more then they are within their moral grounds to kill them. 

 

 


Like I have said, Ellie is not suicidal. She has a desire to live. I am not trying to argue against that. However, what I am trying to state is that Ellie would have gone under the knife to honor Tess, Sam, and Riley; an idea that is backed up by all three principle characters towards the end of the game. Natural self preservation and optimism would not conflict with that decision. Obviously, Ellie would prefer to live, but if she was told that she had to die to create a vaccine, Ellie would have agreed due to her survivor's guilt. This does not diminish the ending.

 

And your statement about individuals being unpredictable is a hard point to argue when considering a story involving characters that always remain true to their personality. Hence ND not giving a choice option or multiple endings. If Marlene AND Joel both believe Ellie would have agreed, we are left  little reason it doubt it given the consistency of the game.

 

Also, you are misunderstanding my initial statement about Ellie's choice being irrelevant. That statement is not my opinion or representative of my outlook on life or anything like that; it is the opinion of the fireflies taken from information found in the game. Remember in Marlene's audio log when she says her approval is more or less a formality? If the leader of the fireflies has an irrelevant opinion, so does Ellie. I am simply confused why many people don't like the fact the fireflies didn't give Ellie a chocie when the reasoning is already provided. It would jeopradized their mission. You don't have to like their reasoning, but we all have to accept it and understand it. (plus, if you think about it, it probably would have been even crueler to wake her up and tell her she is going to die)

 

And while I would normally have apologized for being vague and leading to your misunderstanding, your connection to Nazi experimentation in an effort to depict me as some kind of evil or sociopathic individual is somewhat extreme and highly unappreciated. In the future, you should consider attacking a person's argument and not their character when trying to disprove them. Thanks.

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Wastelander
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Re: The Ending is Conclusive

Sep 8, 2013

conquerator3 wrote:

1]Do you think they will live happily forever after? No, as the infected or hunters will sooner or later attack the camp and break in [they do that even during the game, at the dam.]
2]Do you really think Ellie eats up that lie? She has proved to be a very clever girl. She knows the truth, she connected the dots.
3]Do you really believe the game ended a happy ending, rather than a cliffhanger to make place for a sequel?

There is no reason not to. Have some faith in ND guys and if you really LOVED TLoU deep inside, I am sure you wish for a true sequel, with all the bells and whistles that made the game so awesome and even more... It's all out there.


1] The ending of The Last of Us features Ellie and Joel moving to Tommy's dam with the intention of living the rest of their lives.  These might be uncomfortable lives, but lives still.  Attacks by the infected or hunters can be deterred [they do that even during the game, at the dam.]  Even if the dam is overrun, what avenues does that open for and entire second game?

2] Yes.  Ellie and Joel have built an enormous bond of trust over their trying adventures.  When Joel sternly swears that everything he said regarding the Fireflies is true, Ellie responds "Ok."  She does not respond "You are lying" or "I don't believe you" because she believes him.

3] In your third point, you are rephrasing your first point (asking me if I think the ending is happy) and presenting me with a false dilemma.  You want me to take one of two stances: the ending is happy, or the ending is a cliffhanger.  In the original post, I do not argue that the ending is happy or cheerful.  It is a bittersweet, somber, and conclusive ending.

 

I have faith in the artistic prowess of Naughty Dog, but much less in the marketing branches and the Sony Publishers commissioning these games.  It is common practice for a game like The Last of Us, a game with real artistic vision and heart, to be capitalized by financial agents who are more concerned with appealing to fans than allowing developers to tell the stories they want to tell, more interested in soaking up residual fan dollars than maintaining the artistic integrity of the narrative.  It is because I love The Last of Us that I would want another game to have the same story depth that makes the original a masterpiece, not one that pads out the exhausted story of Joel and Ellie because that is what fans want.

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Wastelander
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Re: The Ending is Conclusive

[ Edited ]
Sep 8, 2013

JazzDynamite wrote:

And while I would normally have apologized for being vague and leading to your misunderstanding, your connection to Nazi experimentation in an effort to depict me as some kind of evil or sociopathic individual is somewhat extreme and highly unappreciated. In the future, you should consider attacking a person's argument and not their character when trying to disprove them. Thanks.


 I second Mr. JazzDynamite here.  Mr. semper_fi_1999's pseudohistorical musings about Nazism are irrelevant and inappropriate to say the least.

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: The Ending is Conclusive

Sep 9, 2013

Mylo_Cordana wrote:

conquerator3 wrote:

1]Do you think they will live happily forever after? No, as the infected or hunters will sooner or later attack the camp and break in [they do that even during the game, at the dam.]
2]Do you really think Ellie eats up that lie? She has proved to be a very clever girl. She knows the truth, she connected the dots.
3]Do you really believe the game ended a happy ending, rather than a cliffhanger to make place for a sequel?

There is no reason not to. Have some faith in ND guys and if you really LOVED TLoU deep inside, I am sure you wish for a true sequel, with all the bells and whistles that made the game so awesome and even more... It's all out there.


1] The ending of The Last of Us features Ellie and Joel moving to Tommy's dam with the intention of living the rest of their lives.  These might be uncomfortable lives, but lives still.  Attacks by the infected or hunters can be deterred [they do that even during the game, at the dam.]  Even if the dam is overrun, what avenues does that open for and entire second game?

2] Yes.  Ellie and Joel have built an enormous bond of trust over their trying adventures.  When Joel sternly swears that everything he said regarding the Fireflies is true, Ellie responds "Ok."  She does not respond "You are lying" or "I don't believe you" because she believes him.

3] In your third point, you are rephrasing your first point (asking me if I think the ending is happy) and presenting me with a false dilemma.  You want me to take one of two stances: the ending is happy, or the ending is a cliffhanger.  In the original post, I do not argue that the ending is happy or cheerful.  It is a bittersweet, somber, and conclusive ending.

 

I have faith in the artistic prowess of Naughty Dog, but much less in the marketing branches and the Sony Publishers commissioning these games.  It is common practice for a game like The Last of Us, a game with real artistic vision and heart, to be capitalized by financial agents who are more concerned with appealing to fans than allowing developers to tell the stories they want to tell, more interested in soaking up residual fan dollars than maintaining the artistic integrity of the narrative.  It is because I love The Last of Us that I would want another game to have the same story depth that makes the original a masterpiece, not one that pads out the exhausted story of Joel and Ellie because that is what fans want.


I am not positive we can come to terms here... As we both interpreted the ending differently.

I see the ending as the total opposite.

As  1) no chance they can with Ellie and her survivor guilt and 2) seriously? I don't think you are right on assuming that... You make her so naive and the expression on her face... Just no. She is not mentally 14... You gotta remember that.

 

As to 3) yes it can happen but ND is one of the studios which is given so much freedom... They say they can do whatever they want. And look.it still sells like hot cakes. I also do not think, apart from you, they'd screw up the sequel... They just don't do that to their games...

 

And here we are again... 2 very different conclussions. Based off 2 opposite opinions.

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Re: The Ending is Conclusive

[ Edited ]
Sep 9, 2013

JazzDynamite wrote:

semper_fi_1999 wrote:

But your still getting into territory of people who "know you best" trying to read into what another person would choose.  You know....I have been married for almost 7 years now.  I know my wife extremely well.  I know her character and how she reacts in certain situations as a general rule....but you know what else.  Several times a week she will still surprise me over the choices that she makes.  There is no more intimate relationship you can have than with a husband/wife but the fact that you can know someone well and yet they will still choose differently than you thought they would tells alot about us.  As humans we can assume alot of things but an assumption does not mean you are correct.  I would agree by the way the story is written I would give a little more weight to Ellie being willing to sacrifice herself than not....but at the same time assuming that I know the answer based on prior experience doesnt mean I actually know what her answer is.......and on top of that we are given many reasons to believe that Ellie would want to live.  Her talk about the future with Joel and what she would like to do/learn........her asking Joel what they would do to make the cure......and many other scenes shows Ellie has a strong desire to live/survive even after the fireflies use her to develop a vaccine.  Ellie is never given a choice and to pretend that she was by assuming what her choice would actually be ends up diminishing the story

 

Your first part about Ellies choice being irrelavent....its so completely wrong.  By arguing this you are attempting to reason out why it would be ethical to murder Ellie.  Your argument is the EXACT same argument that the nazi doctors would use when they tortured jews to death just to try to find the limits of the human bodies endurance.  You know a huge number of our advances in medical care is due to what these Nazi doctors did.  In fact far more people have been saved from death because of their research than they ever killed in obtaining the data.  So knowing this the question is.......did they do the ethical thing?  By your argument that Ellies choice is irrelevant....the lives of those jews are also irrelavent because despite their tortured deaths the data collected will end up saving far far more people.  Attempting to quantify human worth ends up bringing all humans down to a number and as a result you end up with a morality that says if 100 people choose to kill 99 other people because it would benefit them more then they are within their moral grounds to kill them. 

 

 


Like I have said, Ellie is not suicidal. She has a desire to live. I am not trying to argue against that. However, what I am trying to state is that Ellie would have gone under the knife to honor Tess, Sam, and Riley; an idea that is backed up by all three principle characters towards the end of the game. Natural self preservation and optimism would not conflict with that decision. Obviously, Ellie would prefer to live, but if she was told that she had to die to create a vaccine, Ellie would have agreed due to her survivor's guilt. This does not diminish the ending.

 

And your statement about individuals being unpredictable is a hard point to argue when considering a story involving characters that always remain true to their personality. Hence ND not giving a choice option or multiple endings. If Marlene AND Joel both believe Ellie would have agreed, we are left  little reason it doubt it given the consistency of the game.

 

Also, you are misunderstanding my initial statement about Ellie's choice being irrelevant. That statement is not my opinion or representative of my outlook on life or anything like that; it is the opinion of the fireflies taken from information found in the game. Remember in Marlene's audio log when she says her approval is more or less a formality? If the leader of the fireflies has an irrelevant opinion, so does Ellie. I am simply confused why many people don't like the fact the fireflies didn't give Ellie a chocie when the reasoning is already provided. It would jeopradized their mission. You don't have to like their reasoning, but we all have to accept it and understand it. (plus, if you think about it, it probably would have been even crueler to wake her up and tell her she is going to die)

 

And while I would normally have apologized for being vague and leading to your misunderstanding, your connection to Nazi experimentation in an effort to depict me as some kind of evil or sociopathic individual is somewhat extreme and highly unappreciated. In the future, you should consider attacking a person's argument and not their character when trying to disprove them. Thanks.



Ah I see what you were saying regarding the Fireflies thought of Ellies choice.....and I agree they didnt care what her choice would have been.  However they are still in the wrong for refusing to allow her to actually make the choice.

 

And no I was not calling you an evil or sociopathic individual nor was I attacking you personally rather I was attacking the argument you were making (its why I always qualified it with "your argument" as per my underlined portions above).  There is a distiction made at least in philosophy between attacking a person directly and attacking an argument directly....I just wanted to make it clear I was not calling you a sociopath or anything else I was just arguing against the Utilitarian position you appeared to be taking (although taking your new post into account you were stating it from the Fireflies position and not necessarily your own). 

 

I understand what your saying regarding Ellie likely choosing to sacrifice herself and I agree based on the story and character there is a very strong liklihood that she would make this choice.......but once again unless a person is actually given the choice it would still be murder on the part of the fireflies (although not one they probably care about that much honestly).  So the question really becomes do you have a right to murder an innocent because they hold a key that would allow more than just 1 person to be saved?  Wherease if Ellie was actually given a choice then there can be no more debate.....she has chosen to make the ultimate sacrifice to save the rest of humanity.  Of course I understand why ND didnt go that route because then we wouldnt have the amazing and yet ambiguous ending that we have. 

 

 

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: The Ending is Conclusive

[ Edited ]
Sep 9, 2013

Yeah, ambiguous.
Talk about cliffhangers!

Also knowing my standpoint.... ;D
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