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Sep 19 2013
By: VampireSoap First Son 5 posts
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<Spoilers> Ending doctors gone wild? This is not how science works...

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26 replies 1034 views Edited Sep 19, 2013

I was pretty dumbfounded by what the doctors try to do to Ellie near the end of the game. I mean, they just got their fresh sample on day one, and all they want to do is open her up and kill her in the process? I'm a physics major myself, and from what little I know about science, I just don't think that's how it works...Ok, maybe experimental methods are different across disciplines, but Ellie's like the ONLY mutated human who's found immune to the fungus...And those doctors aren't even going to study her for a few days first, they aren't going to come up with an alternative...like finding or developing more advance instruments in order to perhaps avoid killing MANKIND'S ONLY HOPE? This is just...absurd from my point of view. And I admit I'm ignorant about developing a vaccine, but if any of you know something about this, please tell me if removing an organ from a subject is absolutely necessary because that seems pretty radical.

I posted this issue on some other forums, but many people are generally ignorant about this and tell me that I'm nitpicking...I just wanna know what you guys think about this.

On another note, I think mankind's not hopeless even after Joel kills everyone in that hospital. Ellie can actually save mankind the old fashioned way...by having lots and lots of babies...and making sure her kids survive long enough to pass the immunogenes to the general human population. From this perspective, Joel may have actually saved mankind because those doctors may or may not actually develop a vaccine...

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Uncharted Territory
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Re: <Spoilers> Ending doctors gone wild? This is not how science works...

Sep 19, 2013
I am not a doctor myself but I'd assume in their time and condition it'd seem reverse engineer a vaccine from her brain is the.only option and from what I understand this'd kill her. Since they don't know any other option and they did not study her much... Well I guess they just were desperate but that is not an excuse.
The old fashioned way is a good catch. From what I understand there is a 50/50 chance that the children will be healthy or immune... It might even be born infected for all we know I guess.
But for what it's worth, she is 14 and she could have plenty of babies anytime... That is if she is fertile. There are artificial ways of course but they might not work.
I mean theoretically speaking, Joel could take on that. I know nowadays it would be considered a rape but at given situation I am sure they'd come to terms and since it'd also mean Ellie surviving... Well it'd be acceptable me thinks... (nothing to do with rule 34)
I am not sure If the man who'd impregnate her gets infected or immune though so... It's all for interpretation, obviously.
Good thread though.
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First Son
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Re: <Spoilers> Ending doctors gone wild? This is not how science works...

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Sep 19, 2013

I mean, shouldn't they at least TRY to find another way? They seem pretty quick to resort to this unethical (and extremely risky) practice. What if Ellie dies and they still can't develop a cure? This is mankind's only hope we're talking about. I'm just saying that at least they should've taken more precaution instead of "hell yeah, let's open her up, guys!"

And I'm sure there're plenty of boys in Tommy's settlement...I...I just don't think it's NECESSARY for Joel to do it himself...But then again, in a couple years, Ellie will probably seduce Joel...Things like that happen more often than you'd expect...And when it happens, normally the father should encourage the daughter to have more male contacts and to have a healthy attitude towards sex, but since this is the apocalypse, and the earth is desolate as it is, more able bodies are always welcome...I don't know...This is hard for me, or anyone to decide...:smileyembarrassed:

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Re: <Spoilers> Ending doctors gone wild? This is not how science works...

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Sep 21, 2013

(I do not have any credentials in the medical field)

You are correct OP that the surgeon toward the end of the game, and his accompanying doctors/nurses, are rushing toward what they know will be a vaccine.  I won't take away from their decision that there is uncertainty in this vaccine.  The game presents that it will be a 100% cure, and so we have to believe that.

However, that doesn't change the fact that the action of carving Ellie up, taking her life to extract the immunity cluster, is done with a problematic haste.  This is part of the reason that Joel reacts the way that he does.

 

The two biggest issues for me are first that there is only a predominant surgeon in the hospital.  There is no Medical doctor to speak of.  I speak at length about this in my TLoU lore, but having different variants of doctors could have led to different manufacturings of a cure.  Surgeons are stereotypically known for their "desire" to immediately rush a patient into surgery, and ND fed off of that to some degree.  There is the fact of desperation, and never knowing when a cure might be formulated outside of the surgery, but that's no excuse.  Why is it not an excuse?  Because Ellie is safe at the hospital.  Not only does she have a large regiment of Fireflies able to protect her, but Joel himself is still there.  They could have easily waited.

 

The second thing (really quickly because I need to go to work haha) is Marlene's bull****.  She states that the surgery is what Ellie 'would want,' not that she does.  Marlene doesn't actually know, because Ellie was never conferred with.  The girl was probably unconscious from the near-drowning and into surgery without a pause.  Coupling with this is Marlene's recorder in which the b**** states that she just wants it to be over.  Meaning, she stopped giving a **bleep** about Ellie's life.  Make no mistake, Marlene is a true antagonist and the main reason why Joel had to be made to seem as a monster.

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Lombax Warrior
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Re: <Spoilers> Ending doctors gone wild? This is not how science works...

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Sep 19, 2013

It did seem like they were immediately running towards dissection as the only way, but I'm remembering a couple of recorders you could find in the hospital that tried to explain why. Something to the effect of they wanted to collect the mutated/changed fungus from Ellie to use as a base to build their vaccine.  Is that ringing a bell for anyone else?

 

But without the clear and present danger to Ellie, Joel wouldn't have had much of a narrative motivation to act.  Hell, if the fireflies had just told him they were examing her and he could see her tomorrow, they'd have gotten away with it.  *Le shrug*

 

Heh.  Amazing game.  How did you guys react when you entered the ER?  I, uh, kinda shot everyone.  :smileysad:

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Naughty Host
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Re: <Spoilers> Ending doctors gone wild? This is not how science works...

Sep 19, 2013
"Doctors gone wild"

Sounds like one of Bill's magazines...

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Re: <Spoilers> Ending doctors gone wild? This is not how science works...

Sep 19, 2013

Jhooud wrote:

It did seem like they were immediately running towards dissection as the only way, but I'm remembering a couple of recorders you could find in the hospital that tried to explain why. Something to the effect of they wanted to collect the mutated/changed fungus from Ellie to use as a base to build their vaccine.  Is that ringing a bell for anyone else?

 

But without the clear and present danger to Ellie, Joel wouldn't have had much of a narrative motivation to act.  Hell, if the fireflies had just told him they were examing her and he could see her tomorrow, they'd have gotten away with it.  *Le shrug*

 

Heh.  Amazing game.  How did you guys react when you entered the ER?  I, uh, kinda shot everyone.  :smileysad:


So did I.

I mean I killed the one guy, then thought for a little but ultimately killed the other guy as well. Then I paused at the crying woman, begging for mercy... But I concluded she is just as guilty of trying to rip her apart as the others, so she shared the same fate in the end...

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Re: <Spoilers> Ending doctors gone wild? This is not how science works...

Sep 19, 2013
"Get away from her you **bleep**," entered my mind immediately.
When the surgeon dared to hold up a scalpel to threaten in the hopes of stopping me, I had to kill them. Not for my sake, but for Ellie's. I never even considered moving him. Aimed and fired thrice and I didn't regret it (mostly because of what I stated above).
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First Son
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Re: <Spoilers> Ending doctors gone wild? This is not how science works...

Sep 19, 2013
Joel kills every important person in the hospital because he knows it's the only way to make sure the Fireflies stay the hell away from Ellie. With the the only doctors who know about Ellie gone, it'll take the Fireflies a long, long time to recover from the resulting confusion...Time that they probably don't have, since they are being wiped out by the military.

And yeah, the Fireflies could easily just lie to Joel, telling him that it's just a minor procedure. They can even let him see the girl first, let him stay with her until the anesthesia kicks in. But...I guess that ain't the Fireflies' style, and that they are overconfident.
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Re: <Spoilers> Ending doctors gone wild? This is not how science works...

Sep 21, 2013

@Jhooud You are correct that a surgeon left a recorder stating the the host must be killed in order to extract the sample that a vaccine can be created from.  That's from his, a surgeon's perspective, and with little to NO testing or analysis being done.  Ellie has been in their care, unconscious, for a few hours by that point.

They were delighted to rush a girl they didn't know into an operation that would kill her.  Without even letting her know the outcome.  Without having to feel guilty because they never even had to see her awake.  It is utter abuse and makes all of them, Marlene, the doctors, and perhaps the Fireflies in general, as horrible of monsters as David was.

 

**** those Fireflies.  I hope Joel goes back at some point to kill the rest of them.

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