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May 07 2014
By: CowJedi Lombax Warrior 78 posts
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What was Right/Where to Improve 1.07

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26 replies 911 views Edited May 7, 2014

I understand It's day one, and I'll give it some more time - but I would like players to contribute to this thread productively because I am protective of this game, and it's unique multiplayer. By all means expand on this by helping the community brainstorm ways to adjust their daily playing, or your thoughts on what might help you to enjoy this multiplayer more. 

Great Job Naughty Dog:

-Upgrade changes to rifle/burst is a good direction! it makes the decision to purchase armor or upgrade more surmisable
-Cant vault to avoid smoke anymore, good patch

-Rifle damage to helmet buff is perfect, same for burst rifle with armor

-Machete is a nice unique and balanced purchasable

-Enforcer seems about right

-Using rag to upgrade melee seems to have accomplished its goal to make shiv bats less ubiquitous - although there's a rise in tiems now as a result!
-supply box adjustments (welfare) for this update was a great approach.

-Water tower, the most blanced map for DLC3

-Double Barrel for 1 loadout point and as a purchasable is a balanced weapon

-Launcher is a nice goofy, over the top weapon to goof off or be support
-Exectutioner is a decent perk worth the loadout points

-Fortitude (in my opinion) is one of the most useful perksin the game, being only 3 loadout points for lvl3!
-Bomb expert is certainly useful and abundantly present - although I discovered a glitch where you still can smoke yourself if you're vauliting over an object, even though you're not supposed to be stunned by your own smoke at all
-Agility seems to be balanced
-Made 6 total custom loadouts!
-gestures look smoother and more lively, brings more life to the online world
- finally, some trophies!
-13 loadout points seems to be the sweet spot.

What I've noticed has been problematic/needs addressing: (many of these things didn't seem too bad on paper, but in practice some of these things have significantly chaged the meta-game)

-Holy Crap the Specter! I think it's safe to say that everyone had the same "O_O" reaction first encountering that rate of fire!  Each bullet freezes you in place and causes a tremendous amount of damage wobble that makes it inescapable once the bulletstream finds it's way to you!  (and it's silenced!) 

  • For only 3 loadout points that gun nees to be toned down, or needs to at least be 4 loadout points

     

    -Full Auto rifle is obviously in heavy use for day 1, and honestly it seemed pretty tame until I discovered it's basically got way too much ammo.  It's like these things are constantly firing online, I don't even hear any other gun, and it's cumbersome to deal with it's ability (like the specter) to freeze you in place.  I expected it to be like the 9mm, but as a large firearm, it's actually just got a but more priority than it deserves compared to the other large firearms. (honestly, it's like playing a call of duty game now or something with guns that you can just point and hold down the trigger). Last of us is supposed to require a bit more finesse

    • damage wobble turned down a bit, make ammo more expense

      -Kind of a personal gripe, but the lowpass added to the players with masks actually is a bit off putting, and is clearly a filter because it sounds compressed, or blown wearing my PS Gold headset.  Wasn't a necessary change, but A for effort type of change.

      -Wharf.  This map is a mess. It's like trying to navigate a Jackson Pollock painting. It's too busy and clustered, and claustraphobic for a 4v4, especially with the style of gameplay here. This type of map is more of a fast paced combat map.
      • remove some obstacles, contrast the traversable areas with the backgrounds/scenery because it's offending to navigate.

       

      -Damage Marker (and Hawkeye by proxy) is one of the least useful perks on this game. (Hawkeye and Damage marker now are the ONLY 2 perks that can be rendered useless by another perk, making their use of loadout points wasteful - every other perk used in a loadout will ALWAYS be useful somehow, and never rendered useless except for these 2).  Why do I need a perk that requires me to shoot an enemy to mark him, when I can mark them WITHOUT shooting them for 0 loadout points, or make them glow with hawkeye? OH, you're supposed to pair it with hawkeye because it gives you double parts... so let me get this straight: you need to use at least 8 loadout points to get 2x marker bonus AND mark one at a time to glow?  ... but wait if they have COVERT3 then they're unmarkable and suddenly ALL 8 (9 if you use hawkeye3) loadout points are USELESS!?
      • Damage Marker either needs to be 1/2 loadount points or it needs to be able to Mark Covert3 users since you're obligated to put a bullet in them to 'mark' them. There's no excuse as to why hawkeye or damage marker can't mark covert3 users, it's literally the yin to covert's yang.

        -Awareness. (and strategist by proxy) supposed to be the pathetic, selfish answer to covert 3 players? I've tried using this perk and it's completely useless. At least strategist doubles as a perk to spawn early and with teammates... Awareness just doesn't help me at all, excpet by distracting me with a HUGE nametag that literally doesn nothing to help me.  Pretty much any other perk is worth these loadout points.
        • Awareness sounds more like being able to see traps without listening mode, or calling out if someone puts a trap down in the first place at least.  not some perk that acts like an unwanted glitch.


          -Gunslinger.    lvl 1 is the same as the 1 use booster for small firearms or ammo booster... and it costs 2+ loadout points!?  (and it doesn't stack with upgrades!?)  I don't get how this could ever be worth the loadout points.
          • If you're going to go this route, why wouln't lvl 1 start with 50% more small firearm, lvl 2 start with 50% more small + 30% large firearm, lvl3 50% small fiarearm + 30% large fiarearm + supply boxes always drop extra ammo for small fiaream?

            -Scavenger.  Don't get me wrong, actually this perk isn't half bad... but the fact you still have to run up and touch your ammo+supplies DOES NOT follow it's definition of "automatically pick up ammo/supplies". We all basically do that anyway, it's not hard to pick up, or cumbersome enough to merit the 5 loadout points.
          • I expect that once that enemy is executed, that ammo has been replenished and my parts have been added, no travel necessary! (for 5 loadaout points).

            -SharpShooter. This perk is very nice, really it is. Not much to add about this perk except: for 5 loadout points, I expect a smidge more. (the sapping 25 health for headshot is redundant... in fact, ALL sapping in this game is redundant and shouldn't be implemented in my opinion). 
            • lvl 3 should either allow you to zoom in to scope faster, or a smidge higher reduced damage wobble, (sway is fine because it's virtually still after full upgrades), or maybe just 90% off damage wobble when crouching, or the ability to mark covert 3 players with bullets (make it 6 loadout points i dont care!)



              I still don't understand why Crafter3 and FirstAid3 are the only 2 perks that cost 6 loadout points, why not cap everything at 5? if you're gonna go to 6, then re-balance some others to be 6 and give them a little more umph.

            There could have been several more interesting perks  for example:
            -something that prevents you from taking damage from large hieght falls -1 loadout point
            -something that allows you to hear opposing team chat/mic
            -please, anything that would allow you to mark covert 3 players
            -Something that would allow you to climb otherwise unclimbable terrain/heights (not necessarily last of us specific)
            -Something that lets your controller rumble whenever there’s an enemy near (heartbeat gets louder for those who don’t have rumble)
            -a perk that allows you to use a 2x4 to hit back projectiles like bombs/Molotov's back at the enemy!

            hahah im just kidding with that last one.

            I wanted to share my sincere thoughts in order to be a catalyst for Naughty Dog to productively learn from what I think is one of the best online experiences I've had.  Please share this and your thoughts with an open mind, because there's clearly much undiscovered territory yet.


     

     

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I Only Post Everything
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Re: What was Right/Where to Improve 1.07

[ Edited ]
May 7, 2014

 

I actually read your entire post!  And enjoyed it. Smiley Happy

 

-Bomb expert is certainly useful and abundantly present - although I discovered a glitch where you still can smoke yourself if you're vauliting over an object, even though you're not supposed to be stunned by your own smoke at all

If this is true, then ND needs to fix this. ^

 

 

Some of the things you mentioned that I would love to add-on - -

Awareness. (and strategist by proxy) supposed to be the pathetic, selfish answer to covert 3 players? I've tried using this perk and it's completely useless. At least strategist doubles as a perk to spawn early and with teammates... Awareness just doesn't help me at all, excpet by distracting me with a HUGE nametag that literally doesn nothing to help me.  Pretty much any other perk is worth these loadout points.

Awareness sounds more like being able to see traps without listening mode, or calling out if someone puts a trap down in the first place at least.  not some perk that acts like an unwanted glitch.

^I actually like your suggestion here. Woman Happy

 

Gunslinger.    lvl 1 is the same as the 1 use booster for small firearms or ammo booster... and it costs 2+ loadout points!?  (and it doesn't stack with upgrades!?)  I don't get how this could ever be worth the loadout points.

If you're going to go this route, why wouln't lvl 1 start with 50% more small firearm, lvl 2 start with 50% more small + 30% large firearm, lvl3 50% small fiarearm + 30% large fiarearm + supply boxes always drop extra ammo for small fiaream?

TBH, when I first read the description of Gunslinger, it sounds weird and wrong with having to spend loadout points on it when we have booster for small/large firearms as well as ammo multiplier.  Especially this "doesn't stack with upgrades".

 

Scavenger.  Don't get me wrong, actually this perk isn't half bad... but the fact you still have to run up and touch your ammo+supplies DOES NOT follow it's definition of "automatically pick up ammo/supplies". We all basically do that anyway, it's not hard to pick up, or cumbersome enough to merit the 5 loadout points.

I expect that once that enemy is executed, that ammo has been replenished and my parts have been added, no travel necessary! (for 5 loadaout points).

Woah, shocker here for me (bear in mind I have not yet played with any of the new stuff) I thought Scavenger is supposed to AUTOMATICALLY picked up ammo/supplies without having to travel. I have the same expectation as you and was wondering to equip this or not before reading this. 5 loadout points for not having to press Triangle? OMG.

 

I still don't understand why Crafter3 and FirstAid3 are the only 2 perks that cost 6 loadout points, why not cap everything at 5? if you're gonna go to 6, then re-balance some others to be 6 and give them a little more umph.

^Make sense here, some of the perks can go up to 6 loadout points but with better (more useful/practical) abilities.

 

There could have been several more interesting perks

^Yup, and I thought I'll be seeing a perk that can mark CT3 players somehow.

 

 


 

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Fender Bender
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Re: What was Right/Where to Improve 1.07

May 7, 2014
Far is fine as is. spectre is fine as well, these guns are not strong at all. Sharp shooter has always been fine. Scavenger is actually a good perk. The others I either agree with you or I havent used in order to have an opinion on .
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Lombax Warrior
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Re: What was Right/Where to Improve 1.07

May 7, 2014
I'd much rather deal with everyone having one hits because it discourages you to rush all the time, rather than everyone have bombs and smokes that explode instantly.

Also the binding glitch still works and gives you a rag in addition now.
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Fender Bender
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Re: What was Right/Where to Improve 1.07

May 7, 2014

No nerfs are needed.

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Splicer
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Re: What was Right/Where to Improve 1.07

May 7, 2014

Excellent post.

As I mentioned in another thread, I really do think the the perk system is still in a very early stage of development as opposed to a fully fleshed out and well executed idea (I love it, I just think it could be vastly improved).  You've basically tapped into the crux of the problem with perk system.  Too much of it is either too costly or ultimately useless. 

 

With approximately 10 points maximum to spend on perks (assuming you use a base model large weapon or a special weapon alone and not both which reduces you to 7 or 8) you only have the opportunity to take maybe two upgraded perks or four low grade perks.  Most low grade perks are only useful in the most limited of situations (or basically terrible).  If you want to be a true support class who can revive and heal well, you basically are useless on the offensive.  If you consider the nature of damage wobble and how few hits it takes to wound and down, a 3 v 3 match of equally skilled players I'd wager would always end with the 3 offensive perked players trouncing the 2 offensive, 1 support.  Since this thread has some ideas about changes, here would be my ideas.  You could adjust the point per level by 1 in order to compensate for empowering these perks perhaps.

 

Combine Pistol Expert and Gunslinger. 

Combine Reviver and First Aid.

Combine Hawk Eye and Damage Marker.

 

I think those are the safer combinations that could easily take place that don't really make any of them brutally overpowered and allow you to take these perks while still maintaining a balance between support, strategy, and offense.  Here are some more controversial ones that I think could still be gotten away with but probably would require either cost adjustment, or some pruning of the capabilities of the perks.

 

Combine Bomb Expert and Explosives Expert.

Combine Strategist with Sharp Ears (or Awareness and Sharp Ears)

Combine Covert Training with either Sharp Ears / Executioner.

 

Now here is my reasoning for these last ones, and please remember I'm well aware they're controversial, most will not like them, and that all of this is just an opinion from my experience of play.  With the bombs / explosive expert I think you could remove molotovs completely from the equation to balance them slightly better (especially with the addition of a grenade launcher to give another thing buffed by the ability).  In return there could be a pyromanic type perk that buffs molotovs and flamethrowers (molotov radius and your flamethrower consumes ammo more slowly/slightly improved range of a few feet). 

 

The middle suggestion was mostly me spitballing to help reduce the perk bloat that there is currently (more on that later). 

The third suggestion is because of the introduction of a fully buffed agility for 4 points.  Right now, I feel as players get better and better they'll realize how weak Covert Training is compared to Agility fully buffed.  Agility for 4 points provides you with better stealth than Cover Training and a vastly increased movement speed.  The ability to not be marked for 5 points on Covert Training is certainly nice but frankly I agree with the OP that its ability to negate two entire perks is ridiculous and should probably be pruned from it.  I think Covert Training could also use a buff to the shiv, considering right now it has only one charge which is pretty useful, but it's not like shivs are hard to create.  They're one of the easiest items to make from just two boxes and the one you craft is better than the one Covert gives you.

 

In summation, right now there is a bit of perk bloat.  Some perks offer you so much utility and versatility while others offer such narrow niches, some easily negated completely by either better gameplay or circumstance, that it would help to combine some of the weaker abilities.  As a big player of MMO type games with talent systems, I'd just like to end with this for Naughty Dog.  Giving us choice is amazing.  Players truly love variety.  Most of us will gladly experiment with all the shiny things you give us in order to determine what works for us and what we like and what we don't.  Sometimes it's preference and maybe that's what all this is and what you'll decide it is and not a truly valid concern.  But as an MMO player, all too often I see the illusion of choice.  A number of options that are given that just don't hold up in comparison to the remaining choices.  Sure, some people will still blindly cling to some of these perks for nostalgia, for the niche that they love, or because they are not as adept at understanding how to fine tune (or be a try hard as some would say).  But if you were to perhaps buff / develop some of the recognized weak perks I think the quality of life for people wanting to use these perks would increase.  And in turn, weapon selection would be more crucial as the perks would seem more useful and tantalizing and the debate about whether to take a rifle or special weapon would be far more strategic (and in turn would likely reduce players uses Flavor of the Month or OP weapons).

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Re: What was Right/Where to Improve 1.07

May 7, 2014

CowJedi wrote:

 

-Holy Crap the Specter! I think it's safe to say that everyone had the same "O_O" reaction first encountering that rate of fire!  Each bullet freezes you in place and causes a tremendous amount of damage wobble that makes it inescapable once the bulletstream finds it's way to you!  (and it's silenced!) 

  • For only 3 loadout points that gun nees to be toned down, or needs to at least be 4 loadout points

     


          • -Scavenger.  Don't get me wrong, actually this perk isn't half bad... but the fact you still have to run up and touch your ammo+supplies DOES NOT follow it's definition of "automatically pick up ammo/supplies". We all basically do that anyway, it's not hard to pick up, or cumbersome enough to merit the 5 loadout points.
          • I expect that once that enemy is executed, that ammo has been replenished and my parts have been added, no travel necessary! (for 5 loadaout points).



     

     


Good post overall and agree with a lot of your points except the Specter and ESPECIALLY Scavanger.

 

I'm one of those people who thinks the Specter isn't that good.  In fact it might be one of the weaker power weapons.  

 

Specter pros:

  • Silent
  • Highest RoF
  • Stopping Power
  • Beastly in close quarters and close-medium range

Cons

  • Worst bang for your parts.  Requires something like 6 bullets to down, however most players unload close to the full clip taking down one enemy because it fires so fast.  I doubt most players using the Specter are able to shoot exactly 6 bullets in the midst of a gun battle.  Most case scenario you are unloading around 10 bullets to get the job done.
  • Not efficient for enemies medium to far range.  Anything beyond close-to-medium range, you are going to be unloading the full clip.  

Once the novelty of a CoD type of gun wears off, you will see less and less of Specter users roaming around.  

 

Scavanger

 


Absolutely should Scavanger NOT pick up ammo automatically without a player having to walk over the ammo.  The game would fundamentally take on a totally different feel if automatic pickups happened.  

 

The thing that makes TLOU unique is the scarcity of ammo (ok, so it's less scarce with this DLC).  If shooting someone allowed automatic pick up of ammo without you traveling to pick it up, this could potentially cause a lot of camping to happen.  You could just sit in a spot all day and all night and not have to leave your spot to pick up your ammo.  For example: You would see Hunting Rifle snipers camping all day in one spot because they wouldn't have to give up their spot to retrieve ammo + dropped craftable items.  Making players go out into the open to retrieve ammo is a risk-reward element.  

 

Trust me, as a HR user mostly I would have LOVED this as I'm always running out of bullets from long range kills (and misses), but it would be too much of a bad thing IMO.

Apparently the world of scarcity does not apply to all the moronic posters on this forum.
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Treasure Hunter
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Re: What was Right/Where to Improve 1.07

May 7, 2014
I read it all. I agree with some of it. Disagree with other stuff. But its just too early say anything definitive.
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Lombax Warrior
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Re: What was Right/Where to Improve 1.07

May 8, 2014
Thanks so far for your contributions, I would like to expand on this a bit more... I'm currently on strike from playing this game now... It's seriously unplayable now, because they over did it.
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Hekseville Citizen
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Re: What was Right/Where to Improve 1.07

May 8, 2014

I agree with pretty much everything except for the terrible idea where you listen in to the other team. TERRIBLE idea.

When all have fallen, rise above the ashes.
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