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Jun 10 2011
By: Reckless87o Wastelander 605 posts
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Naughty Dog Developers, please give this a read (pretty please, with a cherry on top??)

29 replies 24 views Edited Jun 10, 2011

So, I've been looking at a lot of the new additions to the multiplayer, and while it looks amazing so far, there have been a few things I noticed that I feel would still need a lot of work and issues that need to be addressed. Most of these have to do with the boosters, kickbacks, Power Plays (PP's) and a few other things.

 

I think a lot of the new additions are geared towards making the game less skill orientated and more random. A closer look at some of the new mechanics are really questionable, I think because they might be trying too hard to even the playing field, mainly by punishing the more skilled players and rewarding the less skilled players. They accomplish this by either directly punishing a good player, or by introducing too much random chance into the gameplay. Im all for making the multiplayer a crazier, more intense experience but some of these new additions have the potentail to drive it overboard. UC2 multiplayer was very competitive and I think the majority of players would like to see that carry into UC3. First on my list is Boosters.

 

Boosters - Slot 1

 

Come Here - See the opponent that killed you up to 15 meters until they die

  • I think this booster is just ridiculous. This booster, if it makes its way into the final version of the game, basically punishes a player for getting a kill on another player by letting the user see where they are until they die again. Why should I be punished because I got the best of you? The potential for abuse here is alarming. Think about what would happen if an entire team were using this booster. They'd basically be able to see where the opposing team was most of the time, and, an exceptional player on the opposing team who has a lot of kills, would probably have all eyes on him. Again, punished for being a good player, and it just doesnt seem fair.

Let Me See - Every two deaths allow you to see all opponents for 8 seconds

  • This is even worse than Come Here. NOW imagine an entire team of players using this. Kiss your chances of winning goodbye. What's even worse is that its only every two deaths, when something like this should probably only be activated after an "Unlucky" medal. The entire team knowing where EVERYONE is all the time? Please re-consider this.

Both of the above boosters are variations of SA, which I'm sure you know by now ND, most of the players want removed. Please re-consider these boosters.

 

Retaliation - Spawn with limited ammo when killed with a Power Weapon

  • This is also a problem. Much of what I enjoyed about the gameplay in UC2 was being able to party up with friends, work together and use strategies we had come up with,a nd use them in our matches. Much of the strategies revolved around the use of power weapons. Power weapons, in my eyes and I'm sure the eyes of many other players are a crucial part of many strategies, as the team who is the best at controlling their use on a given map are usually the winning team. They are also very useful in being able to turn the tides of a match for a losing team. If this booster makes it into the final version of the game, you're basically going to destroy that. Its going to put less emphasis on strategizing and working together, because if I can just spawn with a rocket launcher, why would I even bother to risk my life trying to get it before the other team. It cancels out. And think about if this was combined with something like the RPG Kickback.

Booster - Slot 2

Power Hunter - See the location of Power Weapons within 10 meters (Required Rank: 7)

  •     This booster isn't so bad by itself, but it could be if combined with Retaliation and an RPG Kickback. Again this could really take away from the emphasis of working together (and probably indirectly, your buddy system) if people are allowed to run around the map with a power weapon in their hands half of the time. Also, it just seems very random and out of place, but thats just my subjective opinion.

For My Buddy - See the location of the opponent that killed your buddy until they die

  • I didnt want to include this, because Im really excited about the buddy system and cannot wait to use it, but this is a third variation of SA. Again a booster NOBODY wanted to see return.

Medal Kickbacks

 

Militia Man - No reloading for 30 second. Costs 5 medals.

  • Nothng to see here. I was wrong about this one

Power Plays

 

     Before I get started on these, let me just state that I do like the idea of power plays.I think they are a great idea that will definitely add a lot of variation and complexity to the multiplayer, as well as encourage teamwork. But there is a lot that could go wrong with PP's if they arent very carefully thought about and balanced. I think the biggest issue would be exploitation of PP's by teams of players.

 

     One thing I noticed in the E3 footage was that a PP was activated when the score was only 11-5. Now, I'm not sure if thats the way it was because you guys just wanted to show it off to the public, or if that's how you guys want it to be, but there a few issues I have with it.

 

     First, 11-5 is only a 6 point lead by the winning team. I read in an interview with one of your employees that PP's were put in place to prevent "blowout" wins by the winning team and to give the losing team a chance to catch up and close the gap. A 6 point lead is hardly a "blowout". If PP's were to be activated at such a small gap, what's to stop a team from intentionally sacrificing a few of their lives just to earn a PP when they were down? They could in theory just keep doing it over and over until they won the match.

 

My ideal "requiremements" for the PP's would be as follows;

 

1. PP's are only activated after the halfway point in a match. This will avoid PP's being activated after only a small lead and this way, the winning team doesnt have to constantly defend its lead for the whole duration of a match or resort to cheap methods to stay ahead. This is one of those instances where I think it may seem like the winning team is being punished for being better.

 

2.PP's are only activated after at least a 10 point lead. Lets face it, a 6 point lead isnt much of a "lead". Otherwise the system will favor those who are weaker players and punish those who are better at the game, simply because they are better. Couple this with PP's being available for the entire game and this quickly becomes unbalanced. I dont think the game will be as fun if the superior team has to constantly fight to keep the lead they earned fair and square. The game shouldnt be designed to hold the hands of weak players (although a little help is never a bad thing :smileyhappy:)

 

3.PP's should only be actuvated a limited number of times per match. Im thinking 1-2 is a fair number.

 

Choosing a Region

 

A feature that many players have been hoping for. One of the most frustrating aspects of UC2's multiplayer was having to play people from across the world, becasue if the differences in connection speed. It's really no fun to have to continually play against people from different countries because most of the time the distance causes lag in the game that is not enjoyable for the players in either country.It gets frustrating very quickly, as, for example I played 4 matches in a row today with players from what I'm assuming is South America and it was beyond aggrevating to play against people who were able to kill me much more quickly than I them, because of the lag. Just very, very frustrating.

 

Matchmaking

 

I think this system needs to be more selective. Simply put, it needs to do a better job at selecting players who are  more similar to one another in rank. I know that you guys (ND) want to make this game a little more friendly towards less skilled and casual players, so I think this is something that if implemented, would be really beneficial.

 

In closing...

 

   Most of the issues with the new additions are the potential for abuse when they are piled on top of one another. A lot of the ideas are great, but I just think they need to be tweaked, changed an moved around a bit just so that everything balances itself out as best as it can. I'm also aware of how difficult that must be. I know that we havent even gotten the chance to play the beta yet, but I just felt I needed to bring it up beforehand and to maybe see what everyone else was thinking.

 

As it stands, I am really excited for this game regardless and will definitely be purchasing it no matter what. I'm also super pysched about the LAN capabilities that have been added, because I've been wishing for them since UC2 came out.

 

 

 

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I Only Post Everything
Registered: 02/26/2009
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Thanks for taking the time to articulate all this, I agre...

Jun 10, 2011

 


Reckless87o wrote:

Retaliation - Spawn with limited ammo when killed with a Power Weapon

  • This is also a problem. Much of what I enjoyed about the gameplay in UC2 was being able to party up with friends, work together and use strategies we had come up with,a nd use them in our matches. Much of the strategies revolved around the use of power weapons. Power weapons, in my eyes and I'm sure the eyes of many other players are a crucial part of many strategies, as the team who is the best at controlling their use on a given map are usually the winning team. They are also very useful in being able to turn the tides of a match for a losing team. If this booster makes it into the final version of the game, you're basically going to destroy that. Its going to put less emphasis on strategizing and working together, because if I can just spawn with a rocket launcher, why would I even bother to risk my life trying to get it before the other team. It cancels out. And think about if this was combined with something like the RPG Kickback.

Definitely. I play a lot of customs and I absolutely hate it when teams request no power weapons. With no power weapons there's less incentive to move and take control of the map. We had a match go on for 20 minutes on the Fort...the end score was 1-1. No power weapons. Another one on the Temple, no power weapons - 1 kill in the 1st 15 seconds, then nothing for another 7 minutes. The reward for moving and grabbing a power weapon is negated by

1. being easily killed by an AK (which some people misconstrued as balance when ND lowered the health and made power weapons useless)

And

2. having the enemy spawn with your power weapon because YOU moved and grabbed it. Like you said, why even bother risking your life to get it?

The potential for abuse is ridiculous. A whole team with this and one guy with a hammer killing three people suddenly balloons into 3 hammers and an entire team dead. If retaliation works with weapons acquired by retaliation, it'll increase from there assuming others have it and turn into a power weapon match. Fun.

 

Medal Kickbacks

 

Militia Man - No reloading for 30 second. Costs 5 medals.

  • I'm assuming this means nobody on the opposite team can reload for 30 seconds? This just doesnt make a lot of sense, and is really random. I mean, not the worst thing in the world, but it just made me "**bleep**?"

I think it means the player who activates it doesn't have to reload for 30 seconds. So it's like an infinite clip. Could be wrong.

 

 


 

Thanks for taking the time to articulate all this, I agree with most of it.

I just singled out a few points for elaboration or clarification.

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Treasure Hunter
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I think that they're all great ideas, will make the game...

Jun 10, 2011

I think that they're all great ideas, will make the game fair and balanced and UC3 is easily GOTY 2011. You have no right to formulate impressions on the game before you play the beta.

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Treasure Hunter
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Exactly, I don't know why people think they can come forw...

Jun 10, 2011

 


pdiss88 wrote:

I think that they're all great ideas, will make the game fair and balanced and UC3 is easily GOTY 2011. You have no right to formulate impressions on the game before you play the beta.


 

Exactly, I don't know why people think they can come forward and express their opinions like they've been doing. You have to stay either excited or absolutely neutral until you've played the game.

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Sackboy
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If I could kudo you infinitely I would. Well said and org...

Jun 10, 2011

If I could kudo you infinitely Reckless, I would. :smileyvery-happy: 

Well said and nicely organized. I share your view on all points.

 

If I'm not mistaken, Militia Man means that you (the player) doesn't need to reload for 30 seconds (aka unlimited ammo). At least what I thought it meant when I read it.

 

Regarding PowerPlays, there seems to be two good ways of handling them:

 

 

  • Method 1There are two possible PowerPlays per match. A lower powered one at a small lead 6-10 (Marked Man etc.) and a more powerful one at a 15-20 kill gap (Cursed, Double Damage, Exposed etc.). This seems pretty fair to me, but if the high-power PP's are going to randomly cycle they definitely needs to serious tweaking/balancing.
  • Method 2 - There is only one possible PowerPlay per match. Activated at a 15-20 point lead, the PP is voted on by the player before the match (along with the map). Personally this is my preferred option due to it better following ND's description of PP's back when they announced them in April (see below).

PowerPlays are only intended for when the winning team is on their way to a shutout according to ND, to quote the blog:

 

"A couple of things we've learned over the past year and a half of reviewing thousands upon thousands of Uncharted 2 matches is that it really sucks to be blown out on the way to losing a match...Power Plays activate when one team is way behind in the score count."


I'm fine either either of the two options, I do favor the second one due to the above and because it lets the player's actively choose their preference.

 

 


pdiss88 wrote:

I think that they're all great ideas, will make the game fair and balanced and UC3 is easily GOTY 2011. You have no right to formulate impressions on the game before you play the beta.


 LOL.

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Treasure Hunter
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I am not going to respond to most of this because, as pdi...

Jun 10, 2011

I am not going to respond to most of this because, as pdiss said (quite eloquently), it's hard to formulate opinions on something you haven't gotten your hands on yet.

 

I will say, however, that I do not agree with the "Choose A Region" section.  One of the best components of playing this game, for me, has been playing with people from around the world.  Regardless of our cultural, political, or socio-economic backgrounds, we are brought together by how awesome we think this game is.  I have made several friends and met some truly wonderful people who I would NOT be able to play with were Uncharted 3 to feature some sort of region lock.  

 

Sure, the lag is regrettable, but I will deal with it if it means I get to play with my international friends.  

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Gaming Beast
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You don't actually know that this system rewards the less...

Jun 10, 2011

 


Reckless87o wrote:

So, I've been looking at a lot of the new additions to the multiplayer, and while it looks amazing so far, there have been a few things I noticed that I feel would still need a lot of work and issues that need to be addressed. Most of these have to do with the boosters, kickbacks, Power Plays (PP's) and a few other things.

 

I think a lot of the new additions are geared towards making the game less skill orientated and more random. A closer look at some of the new mechanics are really questionable, I think because they might be trying too hard to even the playing field, mainly by punishing the more skilled players and rewarding the less skilled players. They accomplish this by either directly punishing a good player, or by introducing too much random chance into the gameplay. Im all for making the multiplayer a crazier, more intense experience but some of these new additions have the potentail to drive it overboard. UC2 multiplayer was very competitive and I think the majority of players would like to see that carry into UC3. First on my list is Boosters.

 

Boosters - Slot 1

 

Come Here - See the opponent that killed you up to 15 meters until they die

  • I think this booster is just ridiculous. This booster, if it makes its way into the final version of the game, basically punishes a player for getting a kill on another player by letting the user see where they are until they die again. Why should I be punished because I got the best of you? The potential for abuse here is alarming. Think about what would happen if an entire team were using this booster. They'd basically be able to see where the opposing team was most of the time, and, an exceptional player on the opposing team who has a lot of kills, would probably have all eyes on him. Again, punished for being a good player, and it just doesnt seem fair.

Let Me See - Every two deaths allow you to see all opponents for 8 seconds

  • This is even worse than Come Here. NOW imagine an entire team of players using this. Kiss your chances of winning goodbye. What's even worse is that its only every two deaths, when something like this should probably only be activated after an "Unlucky" medal. The entire team knowing where EVERYONE is all the time? Please re-consider this.

Both of the above boosters are variations of SA, which I'm sure you know by now ND, most of the players want removed. Please re-consider these boosters.

 

Retaliation - Spawn with limited ammo when killed with a Power Weapon

  • This is also a problem. Much of what I enjoyed about the gameplay in UC2 was being able to party up with friends, work together and use strategies we had come up with,a nd use them in our matches. Much of the strategies revolved around the use of power weapons. Power weapons, in my eyes and I'm sure the eyes of many other players are a crucial part of many strategies, as the team who is the best at controlling their use on a given map are usually the winning team. They are also very useful in being able to turn the tides of a match for a losing team. If this booster makes it into the final version of the game, you're basically going to destroy that. Its going to put less emphasis on strategizing and working together, because if I can just spawn with a rocket launcher, why would I even bother to risk my life trying to get it before the other team. It cancels out. And think about if this was combined with something like the RPG Kickback.

Booster - Slot 2

Power Hunter - See the location of Power Weapons within 10 meters (Required Rank: 7)

  •     This booster isn't so bad by itself, but it could be if combined with Retaliation and an RPG Kickback. Again this could really take away from the emphasis of working together (and probably indirectly, your buddy system) if people are allowed to run around the map with a power weapon in their hands half of the time. Also, it just seems very random and out of place, but thats just my subjective opinion.

For My Buddy - See the location of the opponent that killed your buddy until they die

  • I didnt want to include this, because Im really excited about the buddy system and cannot wait to use it, but this is a third variation of SA. Again a booster NOBODY wanted to see return.

Medal Kickbacks

 

Militia Man - No reloading for 30 second. Costs 5 medals.

  • Nothng to see here. I was wrong about this one

Power Plays

 

     Before I get started on these, let me just state that I do like the idea of power plays.I think they are a great idea that will definitely add a lot of variation and complexity to the multiplayer, as well as encourage teamwork. But there is a lot that could go wrong with PP's if they arent very carefully thought about and balanced. I think the biggest issue would be exploitation of PP's by teams of players.

 

     One thing I noticed in the E3 footage was that a PP was activated when the score was only 11-5. Now, I'm not sure if thats the way it was because you guys just wanted to show it off to the public, or if that's how you guys want it to be, but there a few issues I have with it.

 

     First, 11-5 is only a 6 point lead by the winning team. I read in an interview with one of your employees that PP's were put in place to prevent "blowout" wins by the winning team and to give the losing team a chance to catch up and close the gap. A 6 point lead is hardly a "blowout". If PP's were to be activated at such a small gap, what's to stop a team from intentionally sacrificing a few of their lives just to earn a PP when they were down? They could in theory just keep doing it over and over until they won the match.

 

My ideal "requiremements" for the PP's would be as follows;

 

1. PP's are only activated after the halfway point in a match. This will avoid PP's being activated after only a small lead and this way, the winning team doesnt have to constantly defend its lead for the whole duration of a match or resort to cheap methods to stay ahead. This is one of those instances where I think it may seem like the winning team is being punished for being better.

 

2.PP's are only activated after at least a 10 point lead. Lets face it, a 6 point lead isnt much of a "lead". Otherwise the system will favor those who are weaker players and punish those who are better at the game, simply because they are better. Couple this with PP's being available for the entire game and this quickly becomes unbalanced. I dont think the game will be as fun if the superior team has to constantly fight to keep the lead they earned fair and square. The game shouldnt be designed to hold the hands of weak players (although a little help is never a bad thing :smileyhappy:)

 

3.PP's should only be actuvated a limited number of times per match. Im thinking 1-2 is a fair number.

 

Choosing a Region

 

A feature that many players have been hoping for. One of the most frustrating aspects of UC2's multiplayer was having to play people from across the world, becasue if the differences in connection speed. It's really no fun to have to continually play against people from different countries because most of the time the distance causes lag in the game that is not enjoyable for the players in either country.It gets frustrating very quickly, as, for example I played 4 matches in a row today with players from what I'm assuming is South America and it was beyond aggrevating to play against people who were able to kill me much more quickly than I them, because of the lag. Just very, very frustrating.

 

Matchmaking

 

I think this system needs to be more selective. Simply put, it needs to do a better job at selecting players who are  more similar to one another in rank. I know that you guys (ND) want to make this game a little more friendly towards less skilled and casual players, so I think this is something that if implemented, would be really beneficial.

 

In closing...

 

   Most of the issues with the new additions are the potential for abuse when they are piled on top of one another. A lot of the ideas are great, but I just think they need to be tweaked, changed an moved around a bit just so that everything balances itself out as best as it can. I'm also aware of how difficult that must be. I know that we havent even gotten the chance to play the beta yet, but I just felt I needed to bring it up beforehand and to maybe see what everyone else was thinking.

 

As it stands, I am really excited for this game regardless and will definitely be purchasing it no matter what. I'm also super pysched about the LAN capabilities that have been added, because I've been wishing for them since UC2 came out.

 

 

 


You don't actually know that this system rewards the less skilled and punishes the skilled. you haven't seen it in play yet. I think it's more likely that the so called punishments are actually going to net in more kills for the skilled and the effect of hte power plays will be negligible.  

 





ND reads their tweets.
Tweet to them the need for an All competitive playlist. Maybe they'll listen.
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Wastelander
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A perfectly valid point, although I do have the right to...

Jun 10, 2011

*woops* nothing to see here

 

 

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Fender Bender
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The road to hell is paved with "armchair developers"

Jun 10, 2011

...None of ANY of this matters. 

 

NDI will put the game out the way they want (for the most part) and we adapt and play.  Those are the rules.

 

Pretty simple. 

 

Regardless of what is released:  Skilled players will learn and pick up everything faster than the average players.  They will exploit these things eventually to pad stats, proffer absurd KDRs, and chalk-up impecible win/loss ratios. 

 

It's simply a matter of time.

 

Are the noobs gonna suddenly exploit kickbacks and power plays and magically take over the UC3 universe?  I DOUBT IT. 

 

SIDE NOTE:  . 

 

To quote Lincoln Osiris, there's no "Chris Angel, Mindfreak, David Blain" HORSES--T jumpin' off here!  Talented players will dominate UC3 the SAME way they did UC2. 

 

If I were a good player, I wouldn't be worried about SH-T.   Need to learn the new rules and maps, and it will be on to BIG PIMPIN' all over again! 

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Wastelander
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I agree with your pont, and I'm certainly not worried abo...

Jun 10, 2011

 


SLEAZE_IT_UP wrote:

...None of ANY of this matters. 

 

NDI will put the game out the way they want (for the most part) and we adapt and play.  Those are the rules.

 

Pretty simple. 

 

Regardless of what is released:  Skilled players will learn and pick up everything faster than the average players.  They will exploit these things eventually to pad stats, proffer absurd KDRs, and chalk-up impecible win/loss ratios. 

 

It's simply a matter of time.

 

Are the noobs gonna suddenly exploit kickbacks and power plays and magically take over the UC3 universe?  I DOUBT IT. 

 

SIDE NOTE:  . 

 

To quote Lincoln Osiris, there's no "Chris Angel, Mindfreak, David Blain" HORSES--T jumpin' off here!  Talented players will dominate UC3 the SAME way they did UC2. 

 

If I were a good player, I wouldn't be worried about SH-T.   Need to learn the new rules and maps, and it will be on to BIG PIMPIN' all over again! 


 

I agree with your pont, and I'm certainly not worried about not being able to do well. A good player is a good player.

 

He just shouldnt have to exploit the game mechanics to do well.

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