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Fender Bender
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Re: Region lock toggle - SUPPORT for less lag! [59 kudos]

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Oct 27, 2012

tln_SWE wrote:

xxBLiTZKREIGxx wrote:
I'm in Virginia. I used to play with 4 other guys on the regular. They lived in Alabama, Florida, South Carolina, and Ohio. We typically found good matches and won almost everytime with very little lag. But every 5th or 6th match we'd get a (MEX) or (BRA) player in the lobby. They would typically have double health and double damage. If they were a good player they would DOMINATE us and if they were a poor player (0.5ish KDR) they would be a very annoying opponent who suddenly can exceed what their stats would lead you to believe they are capable of (11-6ish score). This was a nightly experience.

That does sound strange and I can't explain it. It's certainly at odds with what should be happening. There is only one explanation I can think of as for why certain players become bullet sponges, and that's because your own packets are getting dropped. Your opponent's packets getting dropped should not affect your ability to kill him. Of course, a player suffering from packet loss could very well affect everyone because of the P2P system. I don't know how the routing of messages are done between the players so it's possible that bad routing is the cause of this (i.e., your own packets being routed through the laggy player for some reason).


 

It explains it if your hits aren't registering because your shooting while hes losing connection ie not registering to the host ie having packet loss.

Host doesn't know where hes at, bullets don't register.

 

Dead body glitch sound familiar? Not even the host knows where the player is at. While your in it you think every thing is fine or just sucks at the game and your the man.

To everyone else you don't exist until you kill them.

 

See what I'm getting at here.

Packet loss, whether its from poor connections, or distance latency severely effects this game.

Too much you get the plug, just enough your a highly skilled bad a** and every one else is a noob.

 

 

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Lombax Warrior
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Re: Region lock toggle - SUPPORT for less lag! [59 kudos]

Oct 27, 2012

DEATH__MACHINIST wrote:

It explains it if your hits aren't registering because your shooting while hes losing connection ie not registering to the host ie having packet loss.

Host doesn't know where hes at, bullets don't register.

Dead body glitch sound familiar? Not even the host knows where the player is at. While your in it you think every one is fine or just sucks at the game and your the man.

To everyone else you don't exist until you kill them.


That's not how lag compensation works. For simplicity, say you fire one shot with the T-Bolt and hit the player you see on your screen. You then send a message to the host with information about what you just did. The host will then, according to your latency, rewind time and look at what the last known state to you was like at the time that this happened. Since the last known state the host sent to you at the time was of the player standing where he was on your screen, you should get the kill.

 

I can think of one reason that this might not happen, and that is when a state update from the host gets lost somehow. This is not an issue If the game engine forces you to send back acknowledgements when you receive state updates. Unless there is packet loss between you and the host then this should not be an issue.

 

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Ghost of Sparta
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Re: Region lock toggle - SUPPORT for less lag! [59 kudos]

[ Edited ]
Oct 27, 2012

@tln_SWE

It works like this for gameplay data:

Player1 <------> host <--------> Player2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_network

It works like this for VoIP data:

Player1 <--------> Player2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fully-connected_network

Yeap, the host doesn't relay voice chat packets. This implementation saves bandwidth from the host, but it causes problems when some players have connectivity issues (NAT Type 3 and/or lack of UPnP). It's also not very beneficial for people who have crappy download/upload speed. That's why a voice chat toggle would be very beneficial for laggers (I had made a thread about that, but it died soon).


In the Summer beta they also used to use this implementation for votes, so NAT Type 3 players couldn't see some votes. Votes don't consume a lot of bandwidth, so they fixed it by relaying voting data through the host.

 

 

Regarding packet loss, it depends: if someone has 100% packet loss, he will not be able to receive, nor send any data. He will remain frozen on his position. You may unload a full clip on him, but he will not die until a few seconds later and he will be probably be disconnected.

 

UC2 MP allowed you to have 100% packet loss for 5000ms (5 seconds). After that, the game booted you.

If someone has partial packet loss (i.e. 50%), he may not be disconnected, but he will start skipping animation frames, shotgun AK'ing/M9'ing, ice skating through walls etc.

 

ps: Dead body glitch has nothing to do with lag. It is triggered when a grenade explodes on someone's corpse at a very specific interval. That's why it's more prevalent when there are a lot of Revenge players in a match.

http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/The-Last-of-Us-Multiplayer/Ping-filter-toggle-SUPPORT-for-less-lag/m-p/40782623
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Ghost of Sparta
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Re: Region lock toggle - SUPPORT for less lag! [59 kudos]

Oct 27, 2012

tln_SWE wrote:

DEATH__MACHINIST wrote:

It explains it if your hits aren't registering because your shooting while hes losing connection ie not registering to the host ie having packet loss.

Host doesn't know where hes at, bullets don't register.

Dead body glitch sound familiar? Not even the host knows where the player is at. While your in it you think every one is fine or just sucks at the game and your the man.

To everyone else you don't exist until you kill them.


That's not how lag compensation works. For simplicity, say you fire one shot with the T-Bolt and hit the player you see on your screen. You then send a message to the host with information about what you just did. The host will then, according to your latency, rewind time and look at what the last known state to you was like at the time that this happened. Since the last known state the host sent to you at the time was of the player standing where he was on your screen, you should get the kill.

 

I can think of one reason that this might not happen, and that is when a state update from the host gets lost somehow. This is not an issue If the game engine forces you to send back acknowledgements when you receive state updates. Unless there is packet loss between you and the host then this should not be an issue.

 


The question is HOW OFTEN does the host relay gameplay data between players? 30 times per second? 60 times per second?

If I had to guesstimate, I'd say that the frequency is not very high (to save bandwidth) and if you add some serious latency into the mix, then that explains the "curving bullets" phenomenon, aka getting shot behind walls/cover. On my screen I see that I'm already behind cover, but the opponent sees me in a previous state and gets the kill, because the game doesn't update gameplay data too often.

Btw, has anyone played Gran Turismo 5? This game has tons of network options to tweak, including topology and how often it should update data between players (higher frequency -> more smooth gameplay -> higher bandwidth consumption). It would be nice to have those options in UC3 MP as well, even if it's only for Custom Game.

http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/The-Last-of-Us-Multiplayer/Ping-filter-toggle-SUPPORT-for-less-lag/m-p/40782623
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Fender Bender
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Re: Region lock toggle - SUPPORT for less lag! [59 kudos]

[ Edited ]
Oct 27, 2012

I brought up the Dead body glitch to relate on how a loss of connection with the host can happen and the effects of it.

Even though this is the extreme side of loss of connection to the host and caused by the game itself.

 

 

 

Essentially thats what happens.

 

Not because some one was lagging but because the connection was lost.

Sorta the same principal.

Some one blinking around the map is a pain in arse to hit.

Everyone is seeing it, so he's the one with the profound connection and every one else is the lagger?

 

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Ghost of Sparta
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Re: Region lock toggle - SUPPORT for less lag! [59 kudos]

Oct 27, 2012

Dead body glitchers can still get kills and even carry the idol in Plunder (I have lost a close 4-4 match thanks to that :smileyindifferent:), so the connection to the host is not entirely lost. You can also kill them if you find their dead body. It's a very weird bug that ND hasn't fixed since UC2 MP.

They have fixed another bug though, where everyone was frozen on initial spawn positions and it was a race who would kill whom first, lol. I haven't seen this one happening in UC3 MP.

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Lombax Warrior
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Re: Region lock toggle - SUPPORT for less lag! [59 kudos]

Oct 27, 2012

tapantaola wrote:

They have fixed another bug though, where everyone was frozen on initial spawn positions and it was a race who would kill whom first, lol. I haven't seen this one happening in UC3 MP.


I have seen that one a few times actually. It was in Elimination, so I guess they migrated the buggy code over to UC3.

 

Players that warp are almost always laggers. They are really annoying to kill because it's hard to adjust your aim to bursts of movement. The warp effect can be eliminated with interpolation, but it makes lag compensation harder to do properly since the host also needs to perform the same interpolation as the player does.

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Ghost of Sparta
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Re: Region lock toggle - SUPPORT for less lag! [59 kudos]

Oct 27, 2012

Interpolation effectively means to create bogus data. It's like upscaling a 256x256 JPEG image to 2048x2048. It will still look like sh!t.

Not a good idea in my book.

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Lombax Warrior
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Re: Region lock toggle - SUPPORT for less lag! [59 kudos]

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Oct 27, 2012

Sorry, I meant extrapolation. The game already does interpolate the movement by the way. In fact, everything except your own movement you see on your screen is artificially delayed in order for the interpolation to work. Extrapolation is only needed when the packet loss leads to the state catching up with the artificial delay.

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Ghost of Sparta
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Re: Region lock toggle - SUPPORT for less lag! [59 kudos]

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Oct 27, 2012

Which is different how, exactly?

You would still have to create bogus X, Y, Z coordinates, just because one player has too much packet loss.

How about implementing a voice chat toggle instead, to minimize bandwidth usage?

When you turn it off, no VoIP packets would be received or sent. It would be very beneficial for laggers with crappy connections.

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