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Sackboy
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Re: Uncharted 4: Realizing Potential

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May 10, 2013

Matthijs_17 wrote:

inigomontoya74 wrote:

Odd. Could have sworn this thread was titled "Uncharted 4: Realizing Potential" and not "Are you a tryhard for hiding during Double Damage?"


I'm guilty, I do want to finish that discussion, so I do want to say something about it still:

 

I didn't mean to insult people for camping during double damage, and of course I don't expect them to rush forward into action, but there is also a middle way you know, just use cover more and be careful where you walk, that should do it, but if you run to the least busy place of the map and camp there in a corner is being a tryhard to me, double damage never changed the losing team into a winning team for me (that's the first time I disagree with Aureilia :smileysurprised: ), so it should not be that big of a problem, don't get me wrong I hate double damage, if I'm going for a rampant (which isn't to often), double damage is always the point where it goes wrong, and that is annoying, but I keep my opinion that when you are going to camp in a far away corner then you're a tryhard, nothing personal :smileyhappy:


Yeah, I understand your point, man. When I said "hide" I meant being stealthy and cautious; I never really go out of my way to find the safest corner. And I can never stay in the same spot for too long (I'm a somewhat impatient guy :smileytongue:).
By the way, Matt, you shouldn't feel guilty for this discussion. Your post wasn't insulting in any way; it was ID's arrogant manner that made all of this happen... :smileyhappy:

 

There are only two tragedies in life: one is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it.
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Treasure Hunter
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Re: Uncharted 4: Realizing Potential

May 9, 2013

Competitiveness and fun in perfect balance. That's what I feel Uncharted 3 would be with few minor adjustments, and it's not a pile of  failures as some community members seem to think. 

 

I think gaming is pretty much based on having fun. That should be an essential part of making a game. Fun factor will keep the players playing. 

 

I'd say COD is a bigger brand than UC3 and it's not because of competitive support that Uncharted doesn't sell quite as well as COD. Also, Uc3 is a 3rd-person shooter while First-person shooters have a bigger market. 

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Treasure Hunter
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Re: Uncharted 4: Realizing Potential

May 9, 2013

Black_MiD wrote:
it was ID's arrogant manner that made all of this happen... :smileyhappy:

Yes, because it takes one person to start an argument, right?

False. It takes one person to stop an argument and I'm done with you.

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Welcoming Committee
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Re: Uncharted 4: Realizing Potential

[ Edited ]
May 9, 2013

ID-69 wrote:

Aureilia wrote:

ID-69 wrote:

Black_MiD wrote:

ID-69 wrote:

Black_MiD wrote:

Matt

I hide during Double Damage, but I don't consider myself a tryhard; it's just the logical thing to do, I think. I mean, why would I purposely put myself at a disadvantage when I know I'd better hide? As much as I don't want to ruin anyone's fun, I surely don't want to ruin my own, either...

 


No, you are in denial. Only tryhards would hide during DD. It's pathetic.


Avoiding cheap 1-melee-hit kills and other such nonsense is "pathetic"? No, sir, it's just rational...

 


NOT MY KDR!!!

yemen drake

 


It has nothing to do with KDR.

 

If the whole team runs around during Double Damage, since it's also the last powerplay the team that leads after double damage wins the game usually. I have never ever come back from being behind after double damage. I've taken leads after it and won games too.

 

It's just wrong. It's a complete game changer if you play correctly during it.

 

hiding is the only logical and sensible thing to do.


You're right, Aureilia, indeed you are. I should've said:

 

NOT MY WLR!!!

yemen drake


Try to remember, it's not only your WLR. You are part of a team. If you run around during double damage you are being selfish to those around you.

 

Unless for some reason you can defend yourself during that powerplay, then knock yourself out. But the chances are if you actually do run around and can defend yourself, your so desperate for kills that you'd do that.

 

That is the real tryhard. The other situation of hiding is boring but very sensible.

 

I know my limits. I know during double damage I can't survive and would not be beneficial to my team running around. It's a team game, I'm supposed to do whatever benefits the team.



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Fender Bender
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Re: Uncharted 4: Realizing Potential

May 9, 2013


munnsy1 wrote:

Yes, LAN events counter U3's arguabley biggest problem. Lag. Also a cash incentive is a great way to do this, how would worldwide LAN work though? (Alot won't pay for international flights..)


The first may be US-only, but ideally there would be another event in Europe. Perhaps organize it so the top teams from both could face off in a huge championship or something. There are tons of ways it could work.

 


Do you think most of the (competetive) playerbase is US based?

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Re: Uncharted 4: Realizing Potential

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May 9, 2013

I pretty much agree with everything you said but....(there always is one) some of these major concepts don't really apply to Uncharted and the community.

 

You bring up Call of Duty a few times, which is fine. But to compare the CoD communtiy to the Uncharted community  It's like comparing  something like Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy to Guillermo's Hellboy films. (sorry couldn't come up with anything better) I mean both are films and are rooted in the comic book genre but obviously the key difference is one is massively popular and mainstreak while the other is very underground but of course has a small and dedicated following.

 

The realtiy is though I don't think anyone, not activsion, not infinity ward, not the Call of Duty fan base could have ever expected CoD to blow up. I means lets look at it's history first of all...

 

Call of Duty was originally a WWII shooter that was PC based, eventually relased on the Mac OS later. Obviously this title has been ported over to other platforms as well but the roots of this franchise are at the heart PC. Originally it is a modified version of the Quake III arena engine (another highely successful competitive shooter). It was of course successfuly enough to warrant a sequel. Call of Duty II was also released on PC but this time it was also on the Xbox 360. Call of Duty III was one of the first to be relased on all major home consoles, 360, PS3, and Wii. (it was on the PS2 and Xbox as well)

 

Now this is where things get interesting. Call of Duty 4 Modern Warefare was the game changer. Prior to this CoD had a respectable level of success but this is really the turning point for the series and some would argue for the shooter genre in general. Suddely CoD exploded, word of mouth help spread it's success, people were playing it because their friends were, it wasn't a WWII shooter, etc...Ask a lot of current CoD players, especially those that play competitively and they will tell you that CoD4 modern warfare was their first CoD, for a lot of people it was. This is important to note Of course their are people who have been playing since Call of Duty on PC but for a lot people Modern Warfare was their starting point.

 

I mean honestly would have thought CoD would have exploded to the level it did? I sincerly doubt their was any planning on the developers part when it came to how big of a huge hit? I some people would attribue the fact that it went from WWII to Modern times but that is beside the point. It also helps that CoD is a multiplatform game, where as Uncharted is a playstation exclusive. Right there that is a huge key difference between CoD and Uncharted in terms of install base.

 

As for the competitive scene on CoD of course since it had a huge install base, the competitive scene would eventually become a decent size force. I mean how many people know or play CoD? A lot in short, now out of all these people quite a few decided to play competitive, which isn't the same size as the general CoD population in general but since the entire population is large, of course the community would be a decent size, especially compared ot Uncharted, which has a limited  install base being a playstation exclusive and of course even more so due to the fact that how people actually played Uncharted MP frequently vs. how many people play the SP, and barely touched the MP. The gap is there.

 

Back on the competitive side, I mean since the community was there, and a lot of people know about the Call of Duty brand of course things were going to happen. I mean to put it in perspective I would wager more people watch OpTic_NaDeSHot's stream on TwitchTV than people play Uncharted 3 MP on a daily basis. Just one competitive CoD player, not even a whole team or anything. This is the gap were talking about. I mean much like how CoD exploded after Modern Warfare I guess anything can happen, I guess Uncharted 4 could explode on the PS4 whole really knows. But I mean the reality is there are few games that even reach this level of sucess on a mainstream level and even more so a competitive level, so when I say the chances of this happening with Uncharted aren't because I don't want too, it's just a sheer numbers thing.

 

I believe you mentiond Starcraft as well. Which is another very huge sucess, I mean it's a long running joke it's Korea's sport, and entire nations sport and this actually merits some truth to it. I mean sure Uncharted may be the second most active game on FraggedNation but there is a difference between that and being an entire nations sport so comparing them is a bit of a stretch. I mean where talking about a game so huge in terms of community and play that it isn't just on FraggedNation it has many leagues, including Major League Gaming (MLG), North American Star League (NASL), DreamHack and of course the biggest being Global Starcraft II league (GSL). These communities and games are worlds apart in tems of success and once again I am not even sure if Blizzard themselves could have predicted how well Starcraft and the community would have gone.

 

Of course I also must drop the big LoL, Leauge of Legends. I mean some could aruge that a lot of people are responsible for the sucess of the game on a comptitive scale but truthfully Riot games took a gamble with supporting it competitively and it very easily could have died off as quickly as it took off. I mean yes it was originally just a mod for WarCraft III that eventually turned into a full fledge game but I mean it's apples to oranges when the PC community enviroment vs. the console one. Where as PC gaming has been competitive for a while, consoles games are faily new to it. On top of that PC is far more open in terms of the modding community and this the sense of what can be done and modified creatly helps in that very same respect, where as on console games it's far more restictive and usually what you see is what you get. This very same logic can be applied to Counter-Strike since it was also originally a mod for Half-Life. But I mean these games are on PC, which is a much larger install base than some would think and the differences between PC and console gaming, while small are there.

 

Now Halo is more interesting example, while yes it's FPS, it like Uncharted is mainly a exclusive, so I think it's a more fair comparison. That and it's considered a flagship title for Microsoft, much like Uncharted is to the Sony brand. But here are some things to note. Halo revolutionized FPS on consoles, prior to 2001, FPS were a PC game predominately and Halo CE completely changed that. Uncharted really did no such innovation. Following that up Halo 2 some would argue (with good merit) single handely molded online gaming on consoles another huge step and innovation that the importance of is unquestionable. On top of that is was one of the first very popular competitive shooters on a console, since Halo 2 was quite successful on the competitive platform. Uncharted did not mold online gaming nor has it made a stamp on the competitive space. Now while both are limited to one specific platform, one franchise has truly shined in the online space and another has mostly been attributed to it's blockbuster like single player experience, though it has multiplayer. I sincerly doubt Bungie could have imagined how huge Halo and the community would have become, I doubt their was any form of growth, projections, etc...It just kind of exploded and the rest is history.

 

Look I do share your excitment and hopes for Uncharted but at the same time one must not ignore the giant elephant in the room. Uncharted isn't even know for it's multiplayer (outside of a handful of dedicated and passionate gamers) and the fact that originally Uncharted made a name for itself as a power house SP experience due to Uncharted Drakes Fortune, doesn't really help the caue either. I mean all these examples, Call of Duty, Starcraft, League of Legends, Halo, Counter-Strike, they had multiplayer from the beginging and while the evolution of each is different, one thing remains constant. They have all always had multiplayer from the begining.

 

If your going to give examples, you must first understand them and understand the scope in which the comparison is being made. I suppose I can't forsee if Uncharted will eventually exploded, take off, whatever you wanna call it. But I can tell you the gap I see when comparisons are being made between the Uncharted multiplayer community and something like CoD, Halo, or LoL. Opinions differ, but numbers certainly aren't questionable.

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Re: Uncharted 4: Realizing Potential

[ Edited ]
May 9, 2013

Matthijs_17 wrote:

inigomontoya74 wrote:

Odd. Could have sworn this thread was titled "Uncharted 4: Realizing Potential" and not "Are you a tryhard for hiding during Double Damage?"


I'm guilty, I do want to finish that discussion, so I do want to say something about it still:

 

I didn't mean to insult people for camping during double damage, and of course I don't expect them to rush forward into action, but there is also a middle way you know, just use cover more and be careful where you walk, that should do it, but if you run to the least busy place of the map and camp there in a corner is being a tryhard to me, double damage never changed the losing team into a winning team for me (that's the first time I disagree with Aureilia :smileysurprised: ), so it should not be that big of a problem, don't get me wrong I hate double damage, if I'm going for a rampant (which isn't to often), double damage is always the point where it goes wrong, and that is annoying, but I keep my opinion that when you are going to camp in a far away corner then you're a tryhard, nothing personal :smileyhappy:


The problem of Double Damage is not that it gives the losing team an undeserved advantage, though that is a problem. The problem with it is more multifaceted than that. For example, if noobs are playing on the same team as a party of 2, 3, or 4 good players. These noobs, who probably suck as much if not more than the losing team, are now at an even greater disadvantage. They have no idea how to handle power plays effectively and then get destroyed. Now they aren't having a good time and hurting their team even more by either dying or not covering their teammates.

 

Beyond that problem is Double Damage gives such a huge advantage that the other team can effectively take out and regain ground on the winning team without using their kickback. Imagine a relatively closely matched party vs party game. One party isn't all that good but is smart enough to draw out the game into DD by keeping it close with the other power plays. Then, once DD is over, they can activate their kickbacks on top of the likely better map position they were given by DD (and therefore control of the power weapons) and can further get easy kills on the other team that they didn't earn.

 

Here's the biggest problem with how power plays affect the game: Randoms vs Parties. Here I'll explain why people play in larger parties in U3 in general and solo less in U3 than in U2. I've played U2 and had many matches where I basically beat a party of 5 by myself. The party wasn't all that good but better than my randoms overall. In U3 that's still possible but far less likely. The reason why is because if you're beating the party by the Almighty 6 Kills, then they start getting power plays where any party with half a brain can just teampile the randoms like crazy. They just overwhelm them and it has nothing to do with skill. If you're team is getting to mid 30s on kills they can just let it drop to 6 to get DD. Then they'll have kickbacks on top of that after and better positions on the map (as I explained above). That gives people little reason to solo.

I mean, honestly, what's fun in doing well and getting punished for it? What's fun in dominating the other team only to have your randoms get overwhelmed by power plays so they lose the match by going 1-20?

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Re: Uncharted 4: Realizing Potential

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May 9, 2013

GMRcris wrote:

 

- GMRcris trademark novel -


I agree with him that CoD being so successful really was the perfect storm and it's competitive side getting big is largely a numbers game. People buy CoD purely for the MP. CoD VASTLY outsells Uncharted on any single platform just for the MP and nothing else. The number of people that buy Uncharted just for the MP is a very small number in comparision.

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Welcoming Committee
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Re: Uncharted 4: Realizing Potential

May 9, 2013

neverbelow wrote:

Matthijs_17 wrote:

inigomontoya74 wrote:

Odd. Could have sworn this thread was titled "Uncharted 4: Realizing Potential" and not "Are you a tryhard for hiding during Double Damage?"


I'm guilty, I do want to finish that discussion, so I do want to say something about it still:

 

I didn't mean to insult people for camping during double damage, and of course I don't expect them to rush forward into action, but there is also a middle way you know, just use cover more and be careful where you walk, that should do it, but if you run to the least busy place of the map and camp there in a corner is being a tryhard to me, double damage never changed the losing team into a winning team for me (that's the first time I disagree with Aureilia :smileysurprised: ), so it should not be that big of a problem, don't get me wrong I hate double damage, if I'm going for a rampant (which isn't to often), double damage is always the point where it goes wrong, and that is annoying, but I keep my opinion that when you are going to camp in a far away corner then you're a tryhard, nothing personal :smileyhappy:


The problem of Double Damage is not that it gives the losing team an undeserved advantage, though that is a problem. The problem with it is more multifaceted than that. For example, if noobs are playing on the same team as a party of 2, 3, or 4 good players. These noobs, who probably suck as much if not more than the losing team, are now at an even greater disadvantage. They have no idea how to handle power plays effectively and then get destroyed. Now they aren't having a good time and hurting their team even more by either dying or not covering their teammates.

 

Beyond that problem is Double Damage gives such a huge advantage that the other team can effectively take out and regain ground on the winning team without using their kickback. Imagine a relatively closely matched party vs party game. One party isn't all that good but is smart enough to draw out the game into DD by keeping it close with the other power plays. Then, once DD is over, they can activate their kickbacks on top of the likely better map position they were given by DD (and therefore control of the power weapons) and can further get easy kills on the other team that they didn't earn.

 

Here's the biggest problem with how power plays affect the game: Randoms vs Parties. Here I'll explain why people play in larger parties in U3 in general and solo less in U3 than in U2. I've played U2 and had many matches where I basically beat a party of 5 by myself. The party wasn't all that good but better than my randoms overall. In U3 that's still possible but far less likely. The reason why is because if you're beating the party by the Almighty 6 Kills, then they start getting power plays where any party with half a brain can just teampile the randoms like crazy. They just overwhelm them and it has nothing to do with skill. If you're team is getting to mid 30s on kills they can just let it drop to 6 to get DD. Then they'll have kickbacks on top of that after and better positions on the map (as I explained above). That gives people little reason to solo.

I mean, honestly, what's fun in doing well and getting punished for it? What's fun in dominating the other team only to have you're randoms get overwhelmed by power plays so they lose the match by going 1-20?


That would be so worthy of

 

/thread

 

If we were supposed to be discussing double damage.

 

I guess a

 

/endargument is in order.

 

You win.



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Re: Uncharted 4: Realizing Potential

May 9, 2013

GMRcris wrote:

Of course I also must drop the big LoL, Leauge of Legends. I mean some could aruge that a lot of people are responsible for the sucess of the game on a comptitive scale but truthfully Riot games took a gamble with supporting it competitively and it very easily could have died off as quickly as it took off. I mean yes it was originally just a mod for WarCraft III that eventually turned into a full fledge game but I mean it's apples to oranges when the PC community enviroment vs. the console one. Where as PC gaming has been competitive for a while, consoles games are faily new to it. On top of that PC is far more open in terms of the modding community and this the sense of what can be done and modified creatly helps in that very same respect, where as on console games it's far more restictive and usually what you see is what you get. This very same logic can be applied to Counter-Strike since it was also originally a mod for Half-Life. But I mean these games are on PC, which is a much larger install base than some would think and the differences between PC and console gaming, while small are there.



I'd like to make one comment on LoL. LoL is a PC/Mac game and therefore the install base is practically universal. Uncharted's install base is limited. U4 this will be especially true if it comes early in the console's life cycle. Just about everyone living in a developed country has access to a pc/mac with needed system requirements. The system requirements just to play the game are practically any common computer. There is practically no barrier to entry. I believe it's FTP up to a certain point as well.

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